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Space and Astronomy Thread
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Carlos_dfc
22-11-2011
Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“Europa really does have a liquid ocean after all”

Funny you should mention Europa tonight.

Just as it was getting dark, I was watching Jupiter climbing from the East, with a telescope.
I noticed one of the Moons was very close-in to the planet, and a dark 'spot' on the surface of Jupiter itself - known as a 'shadow transit', when the shadow of one of the moons crosses the face of the planet - when I looked it up, it that moon was Europa.
archiver
23-11-2011
Some rather good stop motion footage from the ISS here:

http://vimeo.com/32001208
Assa2
23-11-2011
Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“Europa really does have a liquid ocean after all

Scientists have found the best evidence yet for water just beneath the surface of Jupiter's icy moon, Europa. Analysis of the moon's surface suggests plumes of warmer water well up beneath its icy shell, melting and fracturing the outer layers. The results, published in the journal Nature, predict that small lakes exist only 3km below the crust.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15754786
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture10608.html”

I've been convinced there's water on Europa for years. I developed an outline of a sci-fi story along with a friend about humans discovering a very complex environment along with advanced creatures living around geo-thermal vents on the ocean floor. It got very involved in the end. Good tosee our ideas may not have beeen so fanciful after all!

Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“New Mars rover to be launched on Saturday

The Curiosity rover has 10 science instruments to search for evidence about whether Mars had environments favorable for microbial life, including the chemical ingredients for life. The rover will use a laser to look inside rocks and release their gasses so its spectrometer can analyze and send the data back to Earth. The latest online information on the Mars Science Laboratory mission is at: http://www.nasa.gov/msl . JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages the mission for NASA.
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/news/whatsn...ws&NewsID=1187
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00lmx11”

This is a monster of a rover, by far the largest and most complex ever developed. It's the size of an SUV and too large for airbags so NASA have developed a 'sky-crane' landing system. The lander will be slowed by a parachute until it is just above the surface where retro-rockets will fire to slow the lander to a hover. Then the rover will be droped down to the surface on cables. How cool is that!

Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“Russian dust collecting probe bites the dust

The Russian space agency has conceded there is now little chance of reviving its Mars mission, Phobos-Grunt. The probe has been stuck circling the Earth since its launch on 9 November, unable to fire the engine that would take it on to the Red Planet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15841896”

There's a glimmer of hope for Russia's beleagured Mars probe. ESA's radio dish in Australia has picked up some telemetry from the probe as it orbits Earth, raising the chance that communication can be re-established and the probe fixed. There is still a short amount of time for the probe to get on it's way towards Mars before the planet's orbit takes it out of range.
TelevisionUser
23-11-2011
Originally Posted by atg:
“Can't wait for that probe to go and dive in...”

Originally Posted by Carlos_dfc:
“Funny you should mention Europa tonight.

Just as it was getting dark, I was watching Jupiter climbing from the East, with a telescope.
I noticed one of the Moons was very close-in to the planet, and a dark 'spot' on the surface of Jupiter itself - known as a 'shadow transit', when the shadow of one of the moons crosses the face of the planet - when I looked it up, it that moon was Europa.”

Originally Posted by Assa2:
“I've been convinced there's water on Europa for years. I developed an outline of a sci-fi story along with a friend about humans discovering a very complex environment along with advanced creatures living around geo-thermal vents on the ocean floor. It got very involved in the end. Good tosee our ideas may not have beeen so fanciful after all!

This is a monster of a rover, by far the largest and most complex ever developed. It's the size of an SUV and too large for airbags so NASA have developed a 'sky-crane' landing system. The lander will be slowed by a parachute until it is just above the surface where retro-rockets will fire to slow the lander to a hover. Then the rover will be droped down to the surface on cables. How cool is that!

There's a glimmer of hope for Russia's beleagured Mars probe. ESA's radio dish in Australia has picked up some telemetry from the probe as it orbits Earth, raising the chance that communication can be re-established and the probe fixed. There is still a short amount of time for the probe to get on it's way towards Mars before the planet's orbit takes it out of range.”

Well guys, the potentially good news is that there are tentative plans for an ESA/NASA Europa orbiter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Europa_Orbiter to further study this world but there'll be no landing/drilling probe it seems. l hope that this project is confirmed in due course.

As for the Mars ventures, that sky crane is inovative but there's plenty to go wrong with a system like that! l would have thought that they'd have done a parachute & retro rockets landing like the two Viking landers which is a simpler system with less to go wrong.

l hope that the Phobos mission can be saved though l suspect that it'll end up as a piece of orbiting junk a bit like Mars 96 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_96 - another success for the Ghoul of Mars! http://www.economist.com/node/1811981

The funny thing is that the Soviets/Russians have had much greater success with the far more hostile Venus and yet things haven't worked out for them at Mars. Apparently, some two thirds of all missions to Mars end in failure http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-on-mars.html.
atg
23-11-2011
Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“The funny thing is that the Soviets/Russians have had much greater success with the far more hostile Venus and yet things haven't worked out for them at Mars. Apparently, some two thirds of all missions to Mars end in failure http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-on-mars.html.”

Yes that's quite odd really. They had excellent pictures back from the surface of Venus in the early 70s.
Assa2
24-11-2011
Originally Posted by TelevisionUser:
“Well guys, the potentially good news is that there are tentative plans for an ESA/NASA Europa orbiter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Europa_Orbiter to further study this world but there'll be no landing/drilling probe it seems. l hope that this project is confirmed in due course.

As for the Mars ventures, that sky crane is inovative but there's plenty to go wrong with a system like that! l would have thought that they'd have done a parachute & retro rockets landing like the two Viking landers which is a simpler system with less to go wrong.

l hope that the Phobos mission can be saved though l suspect that it'll end up as a piece of orbiting junk a bit like Mars 96 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_96 - another success for the Ghoul of Mars! http://www.economist.com/node/1811981

The funny thing is that the Soviets/Russians have had much greater success with the far more hostile Venus and yet things haven't worked out for them at Mars. Apparently, some two thirds of all missions to Mars end in failure http://www.newscientist.com/article/...s-on-mars.html.”

There was a good article in New Scientist a couple of weeks ago which explained the reasoning behind the Sky Crane. I think basically because of the sheer size (and therefore momentum) of the lander making a hard landing with retro-rockets carries a sizeable risk as there is little margin for error. Using the rockets to get the lander into a hover is slightly safer as they have a certain margin of error to play with in the altitude for the hover. It's not much but I guess NASA deemed it necessary. What is interesting is that using the combination of techniques to get the lander to the ground allows for a much more accurate landing (it is hoped) - something like plus or minus 6km rather than the usual 20km+. So this lander is aimed right in the middle of a crater which would never have been considered before.

I think the reason why so many Martian probes fail is because it is seen as the easiest destination. Mission designers therefore develop much more complex landers and probes which they'd never consider for other planets. There's a combination of complexity leading to things going wrong and lack of attention becaue it's deemd and 'easy' mission (comparatively). 33% success is still terrible, though.
Assa2
24-11-2011
Originally Posted by atg:
“Yes that's quite odd really. They had excellent pictures back from the surface of Venus in the early 70s.”

I remember a funny story about one of the USSR's Venus probes. It carried a soil probe which was going to analyse the Venuvian soil but it's results where very strange. What they discovered was that when the probe landed and popped off the lense cap on it's camera the cap landed exactly where the soil probe was aimed. Doh! Someone spent a bit of time in Siberia for that one I think.
atg
24-11-2011
http://www.universetoday.com/91228/d...-hidden-ocean/

I wonder.
Assa2
24-11-2011
Originally Posted by atg:
“http://www.universetoday.com/91228/d...-hidden-ocean/

I wonder.”

Water, water everywhere...
tiger2000
26-11-2011
Just uner 3 hours until lift off of the Mars Science Laboratory/Curiosity Rover at 3:02pm GMT today.

http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
burton07
26-11-2011
When I look at Jupiter with my new 23 x 70 bins, all I see is a very bright light. I can see the moons though.
HenryGarten
26-11-2011
Mars probe due away very soon.
HenryGarten
26-11-2011
4 minutes to launch.
Baboo Yagu
26-11-2011
T-Minus 4:00
stargazer61
26-11-2011
Bon voyage!
TelevisionUser
26-11-2011
Less than 2 minutes to go now! http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
Kapellmeister
26-11-2011
I watched the launch on NasaTV and it was amazing.
Baboo Yagu
26-11-2011
I just hope the new fangled sky-crane works correctly. It's a hell of a gamble to take with one of the most important missions to Mars ever.
Biffo the Bear
26-11-2011
That was one of the smoothest launches I've ever seen! Bon voyage Mars lab
HenryGarten
26-11-2011
Spacecraft now on its way to Mars.
BeethovensPiano
26-11-2011
The DSN in Canberra has picked up the signal from the spacecraft, officialy on its way !!
Baboo Yagu
26-11-2011
Bet the Russians are currently drowning their sorrows.
stargazer61
26-11-2011
Originally Posted by Baboo Yagu:
“I just hope the new fangled sky-crane works correctly. It's a hell of a gamble to take with one of the most important missions to Mars ever.”

Every mission is a gamble!
gemma-the-husky
26-11-2011
anything that lands on Mars will "go wrong" shortly after landing

it doesn't really, but they need to suppress the truth about Cydonia.

Just wait and see.
TelevisionUser
26-11-2011
Originally Posted by Assa2:
“There was a good article in New Scientist a couple of weeks ago which explained the reasoning behind the Sky Crane. I think basically because of the sheer size (and therefore momentum) of the lander making a hard landing with retro-rockets carries a sizeable risk as there is little margin for error. Using the rockets to get the lander into a hover is slightly safer as they have a certain margin of error to play with in the altitude for the hover. It's not much but I guess NASA deemed it necessary. What is interesting is that using the combination of techniques to get the lander to the ground allows for a much more accurate landing (it is hoped) - something like plus or minus 6km rather than the usual 20km+. So this lander is aimed right in the middle of a crater which would never have been considered before.

I think the reason why so many Martian probes fail is because it is seen as the easiest destination. Mission designers therefore develop much more complex landers and probes which they'd never consider for other planets. There's a combination of complexity leading to things going wrong and lack of attention becaue it's deemd and 'easy' mission (comparatively). 33% success is still terrible, though.”

Originally Posted by Baboo Yagu:
“I just hope the new fangled sky-crane works correctly. It's a hell of a gamble to take with one of the most important missions to Mars ever.”

There are some valid points above and I share the concerns over the complex sky crane mechanism. Ideally, I'd like to see more robust and simpler space probes and landers with more inbuilt mechanical and system redundancy so that there's much more likelyhood that missions will succeed even if that's at the expense of numbers of instruments on board. Every expensive failure damages NASA and public support for it.

Originally Posted by gemma-the-husky:
“anything that lands on Mars will "go wrong" shortly after landing

it doesn't really, but they need to suppress the truth about Cydonia.

Just wait and see.”

Those interesting features are nothing more than natural rock formations with scree slopes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sheep2_small.jpg similar to many formations that can be found in desert areas on Earth. Yes, they are still of interest but only from a geological point of view.

Originally Posted by burton07:
“When I look at Jupiter with my new 23 x 70 bins, all I see is a very bright light. I can see the moons though.”

I hope that you're getting the best out of your new binoculars, burton07, and that you've had the chance to look at star clusters and the Andromeda Galaxy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...h-alpha%29.jpg.
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