You seem to have religious issues with this man Winston.
Whilst I am against organised religion I see nothing wrong with someone reading their bible .I personally fail to see that this makes them a "good person" it simply shows they would like to be a better person.Nothing wrong with that.
Knowing you have faults is half the battle to wanting to change the more unpleasant aspects of your nature .
I fail to see how hypocrites are expresssely condemned by God.
Maybe by the church but not by God?
I dont see him as trying to be an example to anyone ???
He is merely being himself ...flawed as that may be .

I'm not an organised religion person myself ,I fear too much harm is done under this banner but I most certainly DO believe in good and evil .

As for him working others up to do his bidding .I dont beleive anyone does anything because they are "made to" .If you are weak minded enough to follow and support something you dont really believe because someone suggests it to you.then its hardly that persons fault.

Now I've replied as requested whilst I'll certainly read your replies with interest I'm going for a cuppa and have said all I'm going to say on this thread

Sorry but who responds to your posts is not an option - unless you have a box to tick that the rest of us don't.

I was going to rise to the insult that I was a sad deluded idiot but decided it wasn't worth the effort. Oops - just have.
Until now I hadn't actually decided which HM I would finally support but OK I'll come off the fence and say it will be Cameron.
Part of the reason for this is the continued negativity he attracts on this forum. I have no answer to the point you made above. Yes he should confront rather than fuel criticism but there are many different ways of achieving the end you wish for, rather than outright confrontation. When you confront someone, surely you envisage that the outcome will be positive? Once the dust has settled you can either kiss and make up, agree to differ or whatever but at least a kind of status-quo then exists bringing some kind of harmony. From what I have seen so far Cameron just doesn't know Lisa well enough to be sure that a confrontation would have any positive outcome. This is not Lisa's fault, simply the result of being the 'new kid on the block' in a weird environment where relationships have become much more deeply entrenched than they would in the real world when you can walk away. Everything is exaggerated way out of normal proportion in there. So let's not believe that for any of the HMs we are seeing glimses into their real character, we see a completely unreal person emerge because of the circumstances they are in. Many won't like what they have done while in the house, much evidence to support that from previous BBs.
So it isn't the real Cameron. Maybe isn't the real Lisa either but she has had less time to be influenced by the 'House Effect'.
Why would I vote for him? Well simply because in competition with the others I believe he is more interesting for all the so called 'faults' highlighted in these forums. Lets face it, by now we are all so entrenched we aren't going to change views either.

Thought so.

But seriously, why don't you defend Cameron rather than pick on semantics in forum postings? (Please note that my lack of a detrimental remark denotes that this is a question searching for a reasonable response).

It's actually very sad, faequeen, that your pithy replies only reveal your reluctance to genuinely engage in the actual matter at hand.

Not true, sunshine. An assumption on your part, probably projection. I am always open to change. I need to have justification, however. I am trying to understand why Cameron is popular (as he obviously is) when he is, quite evidently, a steaming hypocrite of the first order of Grand Hypocrites.

...I have an ignore button. But I don't want to use it. I quite like your posts normally so I'm not going to spoil it for myself. I just feel aggreived that you felt it neccessary to pick on an aspect of my post that didn't seem to have any relevance to the issue of this thread - Cameron.

Sowwy.

If this is how you conduct debate then you aren't worth the effort of an explanation. Do you have a serious ego problem which makes you always talk down to people? Jeeze, lighten up! The level of attacks against Cameron are not only increasing, but his supporters are now subject to the same vitriol

Cameron can do no right in the eyes of some forum members. Whether it is because they resent Cameron surviving evcition instead of Jon or whatever other reason they choose, well they are starting to create their biggest problem, support for Cameron, the number of threads on the minutest of Camerons actions is getting ridicullous and what do we have now some members using inflammatory and insulting language against fellow forum members, in order to as it has been suggested to get a reaction.

Any event is seen as a fix in order to make it easier for Cameron to survive or win tasks. C4 coverage is biased to show this 'axe murderer', 'child abuser' and hypocrite in a better light.

Personally I am finding it all a little tedious and using insulting language is the surest way to convince me more that these views are based on nothing more than a resentment to Cameron, for whatever reason.

Perhaps if certain people were less confrontational I may be more willing to accept their arguments and question my current opinions

Well, duh!

They're his "representatives". I would like nothing more than to debate with Cameron in person, but that's not likely to happen (quite apart from me not relishing the idea of a chinese burn for my efforts). I have to make do with the people who support him. I take that support to mean that they will take up his cause and defend him from attack. I have seen only one attempt, so far, to do so. I am not attacking faequeen, personally, you know. I am attacking her lack of response to a reasonable request for information.

Anyway, are you a supporter or simply someone defending the concept of debate?

Winston - this is but one thread out of many others where I have adequately defended Cameron but the whole exercise if futile when his detractors refuse to accept that what is written could have a modicum of truth.

Debate for me has always been to listen to other people's point of view and take on board the elements that are justified so that my own opinion can be more rounded.

If you take a step back from this forum and really see what the main criteria is for many FM's - it is merely a quest for bloodsport where Cameron is the fox and now Lisa is at the reins as lead huntsman. An obviously affected and disturbed personality which is accepted in order to destroy the object of their hatred.

There is little real 'discussion' going on - that's when the skill of cutting without drawing blood (as you call semantics) comes into play.

Untrue. Check out a thread I started a few days ago when I, specifically, mentioned how he made me laugh out loud because I found him funny.


Trouble is that in order to get noticed here and start anything akin to a reasonable debate you have to be confrontational. If I thought that simply posting up something saying "why is cameron good?" would do the trick then I would. Trouble is it would be either ignored or some flippant comments would be thrown back. I really, really, want to know why someone who shows such disregard for his own, innermost, beliefs can be popular. Please, enlighten me.

I am sorry that you feel that way. If you have any problems with any of my posts then feel free to use the Alert button. If I am genuinely at fault then I hall have my legs slapped and more than likely get an apology from me too. I try to stay as neutral as possible but it's difficult when I get impassioned about a subject. I never start the insults though - only finish them

Anyways, I am posting on this thread agreeing with everything that Winston Smith has said. I am really curious to know what the plus points of Cameron are from his supporters. If they are just and true then I shall say Yay! If they are crap I shall tear them to pieces (Unless WS does it first) as I would expect anyone on here to do to any of my opinions.

Oh, and I personally found Cams comment about closing Lisas windpipe with his thumb was fab.

Thank you faequeen. OK, my response..

I appreciate that it can be frustrating when a feeling of futility takes over. I feel the same frustration when I call Cameron a hypocrite and people just won't address that point.

One of the definitions of debate in the Oxford dictionary is "an argument, especially one involving many people". Arguments, by their very nature, can tend to get inflammatory. Believe me when I say I am not attacking you, or any Cameron supporters, personally - I just feel that they are suffering from a delusion regarding this man. Genuinely.

I agree about the bloodsport analogy. I, myself, have been guilty of this for the sake of a cheap, clever, one-shot comment. I think everyone has at some time or another. Just look at the Justine threads!

I am trying to engage a real discussion. I had to resort to inflammatory language at the start to get it going. Sometimes debate in these places is like trying to push start a tank.

So, given that I promise not to engage in any more insults with you, please, tell me why Cameron is worthy of your, and to a lesser degree , my, support?

Yep me too.
I liked Cameron at the start because he seemed like a nice person and found his naievity kind of funny.
Now the reason I want Cameron to win even more, is to piss off all you "team tickle" fans who continue to post negative stuff about the man day in day out on this forum. Change the record.

I am not a "team tickle" fan. I will change the record when somebody can tell me what the lyrics mean.

I apologise for missing your compliments of Cameron.

Secondly thank you for not trying to insult me either.

My main reason for liking Cameron is very pathetic and doubtless will deserve your vitriol, but the fact is I cannot stand the rest of them, Ray the drunken psycho. Scott the Invisible Man, Steph trying the mother thing a bit too much for my taste, Nush, now if I wanted to I could get really nasty, lets just say I hate her giggly girlyness and Lisa shouldn't even be there turning more than half way through and has an obvious advantage having seen coverage before entering the house and boy is she trying to use it, although I will admit I think it is backfiring on her.

I told you it was pathetic but its just the way I have taken the limited evidence I have access too.

I had a feeling that was coming. Well, oddly enough, none of us is putting ourselves up on a popularity contest television show. My bitching and lack of tolerance for Cameron's faults is therefore not relevant as I'm not asking anyone to vote for me but Cameron's is. Arguments along those lines are just smoke and mirrors (though I note the smiley).

Here's a repost of what I said in another thread, which makes my feelings clear in (I believe) a calm manner, I'd love to know why he's supported so much from a fan too.

OK, I'll accept that it might require a superhuman to put up with Lisa and all of us would bitch. However, how much effort did Cameron make? Reasonable, if distant, the first night and admitted in the diary room he didn't like the idea. Next night when she brought up what he would consider the occult, became totally against her and never fails to complain when given a chance.

Jon would have been difficult to live with as well, but again what effort was made? He could have been more integrated with the group if someone had taken the chance to see he could help in tasks but needed someone else to 'translate' and take the rough edge off for him. Cameron was in the best position to do this, as he should've seen Jon considered him a friend but made no effort and complained about him behind his back instead.

He got annoyed at Fed for his failure of effort in the tasks, maybe we all would? He got annoyed at Tania everytime there was a drink around and for her general attitude, though she was 'fascinating' of course. Still, you'd go for her looks but be totally put off by her personality, according to him. That's nice, isn't it? Ray annoys him when he gets too drunk as do the general antics of all the other housemates because they go too far sometimes. Nush is annoying to him when she drinks as well.

Now, maybe there's something in every single one of his complaints but what does he do? He never makes a joke about it with the house-mate in concern, which would be most people's way of confronting them - confronting doesn't have to be aggressive. He moans to one of his better friends in the house - Gos when he was there or Steph. He doesn't make any effort to accept that person for what they are.

This is where I become totally lost at all the support for him - I'm not against him because of what he said about Jon or because Jon lost to him. I just can't understand how anyone can support someone who's shown himself so intolerant that he won't adapt to people whose behaviour is outside what he considers acceptable. Life is about compromises and accepting other's faults - not in Cameron's world it isn't.

So, a simple question - why is someone so apparently intolerant worthy of support?

No. I do not enjoy disliking Cameron in the slightest - and you have not adequately defended Cameron in my eyes. Not because of a blind hatred for Cameron, but because I have not been convinced that your observations do have a modicum of truth. Your comments about the bell-ringing task seem to revolve around propping up Cameron at Jon's expense for example.

There has actually been precious little discussion about Cameron's good points as an individual in his own right.

To my mind, I have never been rigorously opposed to finding something to like about Cameron. I actually did like him for the first two weeks. I am sure that he must have some redeeming features, but any virtues he possesses are dwarfed by the weight of his faults for me. Sadly, no-one has actually provided any evidence compelling enough to encourage me to look beyond his spiteful behaviour and overall holier-than-thou attitude.

It is not the fact that Cameron survived Jon in the eviction why fms dislike him. It is the unfair biased editing that annoy people and that Cam is not a very nice person. Speaking for myself, it is not Cam my disgust for Jons departure is aimed at, but the greedy manipulative B'stards at CH4/Endermol and I am hitting them in the pocket. However I have a very strong dislike for Cameron because of his hypocricy and how he is so judgemental towards people who don't fit in with his ideals for eg Jon, Fed, Tanya and Lisa, added to that his secretive backstabbing treatment of Nush is in the words of Alex Sibley is DISGUSSSTTTTING.

OK, it's a reason. But, let me put over my point of view in response to this.

What you are saying is that you want to support the least of the evils you see. I would say that this is a bad as supporting any of them. I say, support entertainment and take pleasure in the humiliation of their arrogance. Support whoever is most advantageous for entertainment and, I say, that this means keeping Lisa in until they get the message that they are all unsavoury in one way or another. At least you keep your soul

Both

There have been a good few threads debating Cameron, and I've defended him in some. It soon becomes pointless as the same accusations are thrown at him in new threads and the whole debate repeats itself. One of my replies is here and I still stand by what I said.

I don't idolise him, I just think he is the best of a bad bunch. For instance, Ray scares me much more than Cam. He strikes me as the one who should be labelled violent and nasty. I've also made jokes before about killing people or beating them up, but they were just that - jokes! I've never hit anyone in my life, but does sometimes having the desire make me violent?

I think Camerons greatest fault may be that he is more open about his feelings than other HMs. I sway between thinking he has a game plan, and thinking he's just being himself. Right now I'm on the latter. I could be way out, he could really be playing a fast one that fools me but hasn't fooled you. All I do know is that I haven't seen anything in his character that justifies some of the more extreme comments about him.

Debate is good, but it boils down to personal interpretation over that most complex of things - human behaviour. MInd you that's what BB is all about, and it does seem to produce extremes of opinion about Housemates. I know I hated Jade, with a very real passion, yet others liked her.

The reason I was a bit annoyed was your tone, and the fact that this has all been before. You have a right to hate him if you want, but if I see one more thread asking Cameron fans to justify themselves then I'm going to scream!

Based on the premise that you want entertainment, then why should you want Cameron out and humiliated? You seem to be being entertained royally by every Machiavelian stunt that Cameron is doing (as perceived by you). I would have assumed that your immediate desire would to rid the house of any possibly boring HM. Will you be voting to evict Scott then?

Scream away dude.
I have read, pretty much, every thread about Cameron in an attempt to understand why his hypocrisy is either not seen or ignored by his supporters. This trait, you see, is far worse than any other exhibited by the other housemates for it excuses anything.
As a matter of fact, I think he's being himself. It's the fact that he says the most dreadful things about someone with very little justification, basing it all on hearsay (and, remember, from inside the house that is all it is) and never, never, never, voicing any of this to the object of his venom. It disgusts me to the very core of my being.

That's all, really. Have you read my description of the housemates in "buch of losers"? It explains it all.

I'n not saying vote to evict Cameron. I'm saying keep Lisa in. The message it sends is far more powerful than anything else. The split vote from a three-way nomination is problematic. Cameron is very powerful outside (I have no idea why, hence this thread) so, if it were Cameron, Nush and Lisa, I would say "vote Nush". If it were Cameron, Lisa and Steph, I would say "vote Steph". Splitting the vote won't work. He's gonna stay in until the end, or unless the mass out there that merely see the C4 programme see more than the heavily edited "highlights".

And Scott, by the way, was not boring last night. He was deep down in the bitchfest with the rest of them. Anyway, I want him to realise that some people are on to him. If he can't go then Steph would be my best second choice.