I suppose you're right but I never remember anyone trying to defend his actions when he has appeared to have had a problem with everyone else except Gos, Scott and Steph at some stage. Even those, like Nush and Ray, he seems not to be so distant from he hasn't confronted. Why not make a joke about Ray's temper tantrums when he's calm and sobre?

Anyway, yes, we'll probably never change our points of view but I am genuinely mystified as to how you can consider him a 'decent bloke' as you said in the other thread.

Pious.

Is this a game? OK...

Pope.

Your turn.

Seriously, 'though. Is this an accusation? If so, against whom?

Good morning Winston. In attack mode I see.

Sorry to be vague - my one word post was directed at Cameron.

Mornin' Dude

Unfortunately, this is my normal self. It's a character flaw.

Let's hope the other FM don't suss you then

No, I'm talking about the unwholesome comment made earlier. I class that as a no-answer AND a directionless..well, you get the idea.

And, if he directed that at Cameron then, sorry, but I don't want him on my team.

I forget that Jon is practically perfect in every way

And none of you have ever said a bad word against anyone.... oh no

Don't you just love it when someone joins an argument without listening to what's being said.

Go back, my friend, and read what's been said. You may find it enlightening and quite a good primer in the art of reasoned debate.

OK, I think I can see where peeps are going with the 'Cam is the best of a bad bunch' scenario. It all comes down to personal opinion I guess. I have no firm favourite anymore since the departure of Le Tickle but please don't tar me with the same bunch that are slagging Cam off as a direct result of Jon getting kicked out over him. I just have a few problems with his ways, be it his natural or un-natural self, within the house.

All my points about Cam have been well voiced by Winston Smith. Bring on the debate!

I'm not in a position to comment .....

Rather than close the thread I hope the mods will just remove the offending post (hint hint) - the debate is getting interesting.

Oh dear.

This thread isn't about Jon. It's about Cameron.

Or hadn't you noticed?

You make a good case. This is something I can actually see as having merit.

Unfortunately, in order for me to pity someone, they need to show some degree of awareness of their flaw and inability to overcome it. If you can show me that then, yes, I shall concede that Cameron is a victim of his own personality and that he needs help. I do not, however, think he is. I think he knows exactly what he is doing and is not repentant in the least.

I did read it but everything you said was bollocks.

Cameron isn't the perfect human being either, but at the same time he's not a bastard. There's nothing wrong with disliking Lisa, I don't particularly like her myself. Why do we have to justify liking Cameron?

If you don't want to justify liking Cameron, then don't. If, however, you are going to say that my comments lack any kind of merit then I suggest you back it up with some kind of argument.

There is no way I would justify or defend offensive behaviour from anyone. However, I am quite capable of seeing people in both black, white and shades of grey. So, here is a brief overview of how I see Cameron in both a positive and negative light :

On the plus side

- He encourages people to have their say and to listen to what others are saying. Several times he's intervened when an argument has ensued or when he senses someone, who doesn't have a louder voice, wants to be heard. A useful skill to have in a rowdy group.

- He is blessed with a large dose of natural charm and charisma.

- He is flexible in that he will allow himself to relax and go along with behaviour that I guess normally he wouldn't stand. Though he does have a limit (who doesn't), he's willing to let this slip for the good not only of himself but for the harmony of the group.

- I'm struck by his obvious delight and enjoyment of new people and experiences - he isn't totally afraid to embrace the unknown and go with the flow, as it were (BB Africa is a prime example, also the 50's reward room, jumping into the pool, allowing the women to style his hair etc.).

- He seems relaxed enough to bond closely with some of the HMs without overwhelming them (Steph and Gos especially). He seems to have a built-in sensitivity, on the whole, of other peoples boundaries, though isn't inflexible that he can't learn from making mistakes in this regard.

- He brings into the house a natural enthusiasm and bouyancy. He prefers harmony rather than chaos which marks him out as someone you can trust and rely on, when you get to know them.

- He is self-assured and well able to take care of his own needs in the house - he is not a burden and is often very willing to chip in with help and support when required.

- Clearly has a sense of humour and doesn't always take himself too seriously.

- Is mostly unafraid to demonstrate when he is offended.

On the negative side

- He can bitch for England. We all do this, but Cameron seems especially skilled at this.

- He has a strong parental side that can be a dampner on other people. I guess he had a particularly strict parenting and this manifests itself in being over critical at times. This "vibe" can put people on the back foot.

- has a tendancy to over-react, be over-emotional and over-suprised. This might be a genuine at times, but it can be interpreted as being inauthentic.

- has issues with showing the so-called negative feelings like anger (which is mostly repressed and comes out verbally in bursts of violent fantasies about what he'd like to do to people who piss him off), or sadness. Striving to be positive, like Scott, can be irritating.

- he is too aware of what he imagines the public (and parents) think of him. Because of this he isn't always able to relax or be himself as his brother clearly identifies.

---------------------

I really could go on both on the negative and positive sides. My list proves to me that he is a fairly normal person, and that to expect him or anyone else to not have negative traits is unreasonable.

In inspite of his faults I like him.

Its in our culture to run people into the ground and rarely celebrate their positive qualities. The hatred we can feel for someone will invariably blind us to seeing them in a more balanced and adult way. Equally, idealising someone can blind us to their negative traits (Tickalistas are especially good at this).

It might have something to do with the fact that Cameron supporters/apologists have been asked to present their views.

If you're not prepared to "justify" your opinions, why are you contributing to a discussion forum in the first place?

None of the HMs have confronted Cam about this (yet) - maybe they're relieved to have their own feelings, especially about Lisa, verbalised by somebody else so they don't have to feel so guilty. I would be amazed, if someone did have the gumption to take him to one side and point out his failings to him, if he didn't admit he had been wrong to go as far as he has in his bitching. He'd probably then revert to the bible-quoting prude we all saw at the beginning....at least for a while until his urges took over again! He is pretty fascinating, you must admit.

I have, many MANY times, but you all appear to be so blinded by hate that you don't seem to notice, or perhaps can't handle a reply that is well thought out and not insulting to other forum members?

Why do you hate the fact that the man has fans SO much? I would say that you yourselves have issues well beyond any Cam may or may not have.
I don't like Ray or Lisa much. Well, at all really, but I can at least accept that they have some fans out there and that people have different tastes etc....

At times this forum seems populated by some very randomly angry people.

Excellent post!

I agree, and it goes back to what I was saying about him being more honest with his feelings. I also suspect that the others feel the same way but are too conscious of the game to ever say those thoughts out loud. Mind you, drink does tend to loosen their tongues a bit. Maybe we'll soon see far more bitching from others than we have seen from Cameron.

Alex sums it up well. Shall we do a character assination on you now, Winston? Or list all the good points of Jon and find that he has no downsides at all.

Thanks for taking the time over that. I appreciate it.

I would agree with most of what you say. My points of contention, however, are as follows:

1) When you say that he delights in new people and experiences I am afraid that his behaviour, late at night when he thinks none are watching, does not bear this out. I think that you need to qualify this with something about being in control or being safe. His treatment of the new housemate is based on irrational prejudice, self-interest and fear. These are things that, as a Christian (and this is where the hypocrisy comes in), he should be actively fighting against and apologising to Lisa for doing.

2) In our final point which, unfortunately, you managed to show an irrational bias against an opposing group - deduct one point - I would counter by saying that, as far as I can see, Cameron is one of the most outspoken, but hidden, practioners of this trait. This outweighs the positive because, you see, it contradicts his professed beliefs in a fundamental way.

In other words, I accuse him of hypocrisy - one of the worst of human traits which taints all that it touches and makes a mockery of even the most worthy deed or word.