Most shows on television have heterosexual majorities with heterosexual producers and I doubt you go around complaining about how the "straight agenda" has nothing to do with the general content. That's clearly because you have some sort of *thing* with gay kissing and have chosen to focus on it, but you should recognise that you are applying double standards.

I really like John Barrowman and think RTD is a great writer/producer - AND I'M ALL FOR PUSHING BOUNDARIES - but my point was that I don't think the 'Doctor Who brand' is the place to do it.

Why should Torchwood (and to a lesser extent Doctor Who) by Gay promoting and Welsh promoting just because these are in the interests of RTD? Doctor who was never about these things!

...or have I now offended every Welsh person as well?? (no offence intended)

Why do the gay characters have to be any form of promotion? Why can't they just be characters who happen to be gay in a sci-fi context? Homosexuality as a storyline is incompatible with sci-fi, I agree, but homosexual characters aren't.

I think you've got that (slightly) the wrong way round. Sci-Fi can be about anything. It's drama with a sci-fi angle. Whereas the sexuality of the characters is irrelevant unless it serves the drama.

We can use the pushing boundaries excuse all too much, but the point is TW is no different to any other drama that relies upon sex (gay or straight) it is there for shock value. I have no problem when the sex is in context, say in Queer as Folk, as it has a purpose. I am yet to see any sex between main charaters in TW that has any purpose. I would have absolutely no problem with it if it did.

Most sci-fi or drama manages to tell good stories without relying upon wild sex scenes. Tension is much better if it is implied but not shown. Perhaps the real truth is that the stories in TW are so flimsy they need boosting with a bit of boy on boy action.

I'm not sure sci-fi can be about anything, as such. The sci-fi element has to be within the parameters of, well, science fiction. A storyline about a married woman having an affair, for example, does not slot into the sci-fi genre and neither would the classic "homosexuality" storylines. I agree that it's a broad genre but not an "anything goes" one.

I agree with your last point, though. That's what I was (rather clumsily) trying to say here: Homosexuality as a storyline is incompatible with sci-fi, I agree, but homosexual characters aren't.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm not gay, and i really can't understand all this fuss over a 'gay agenda'
Thats life-and i think gays have just as much right to be portrayed on TV as straight people.
I have 2 sons (12 and 8) and if watching TW lite helps them understand that some people prefer people of the same sex then thats good.
Lets face it gays have had to sit and watch 'straights' for years now, but at the end of the day we are all just human with different tastes.

I admit i find 2 men kissing a bit cringey-so i just look away (although i did find Jack and John rather pleasant)-but thats just me, i wouldn't it to never be portrayed again just because i didn't like it.

Although I can't point to specific examples, I believe there have probably been several episodes of Star Trek (and spin-offs) where there was no need to "shoe-horn in" the sci-fi elements. Stories about relationships that happen to take place on a star ship / alien planet, that happen to involve other species as well as humans?

Different for a film or one-off drama I'd say, when there's really no point setting something in the future for example, unless something about that future has meaning to the plot.

So what? It may have a gay/bi angle, and a Welsh perspective? How is that a big deal?
Do you want them to make a rigidly English, straight, dare I say white version, just for you?

Wow a gay and Welsh bashing forum! Outstanding stuff siad he in a heavily sarcastic tone, okay who wants to start the thread, i'm not welsh but.... For crying out loud,We live in the 21st century sexuality and sexual boundaries and the representation of them in the media do not still need to be dictated by some archaic 'moral' code enforced on society during the Victorian era wher the sight of two men kissing is supposedly seen as 'deviant' Perhaps the OP would also be happy if woman and black people should kept out of American politics just so as their 'agenda' doesn't destroy hies perception of the world?

Baroness Bunkum and Rodrama, you are exactly the type of people I had in mind when I made the comment "What I don't like is that in this age of political correctness, people are becoming afraid to say what they really think. "

It's becoming impossible to mention any thing about sexuality or race without being accused of being homophobic or racist. That is the biggest cliche of all.

The world has gone PC crazy.

Oh... did I miss the "wild sex scenes" in Torchwood?

Welcome to the Doctor Who forum

What seems to be forgotten here is that RTD wrote one of the most outrageous series of the 90's - Queer as Folk. I am a gay man and I was shocked to watch that when I was a little younger.

Doctor Who, as far as I am aware, does not have any Gay (That "Homosexual" word is so 1980's) Storylines, and RTD brought that back, but was the point of Torchwood not for it to be a bit different?

I was under the impression that there was more than one straight relationship in the show. The one thing I do not understand is how Harkness could be so open about his sexuality, considering he originates from WW2 (Or what ever time in the past it is he got lost from)

My point - Torchwood was a created to be totally different to Dr Who, and as the writer is rather outrageous in his writing, he has done quite well to start changing the "token gay" storyline, which is what he has done. Be glad it is only tongues being used - it could be worse with elements of QA and QAF2



(Oh, and to be perfectly honest, you have to remember exactly what you are watching - Sci Fi - is that not as completely mad as the fact there are Gay storylines!!)

It'll be better if there were some.....as it is it's at the 'Carry on' stage of innuendo and mild tittlation.

This is laughable.

In what way is Torchwood "Welsh-promoting"? It's set in Cardiff, so you'd expect some of the characters to be Welsh (although, of course, the majority of the main characters are not).

Is Primeval "English promoting" because it's set in London and the characters are English? (Can you see how ridiculous that looks?) Or can such accusations be levelled only at productions that are not set in England?

He's not from the past. He's a Time Agent from the 51st Century who got trapped in Victorian (?) England and has been here ever since.

Like I say "What ever" - getting away from the point of the thread!

You may say "what ever", but I am merely explaining that Jack does not originate from WW2, which is why he can be so open about his sexuality. You said it was the only thing you didn't understand, and I think "ah, thank you" might have been a little less rude than "what ever".

Oops. Almost forgot the smiley.

You might as well say:

Why the Welsh Agenda?

Firstly, let me say that I am not anti-welsh in the slightest. Whatever someone wants to be is absolutely none of my business, and I respect people for what they are.

However, I don't really want Welsh rammed down my throat whilst watching a sci-fi series. I could understand it if the program I was watching was Pobol y Cwm ...but this is a Doctor Who spin-off! Surely it should be staffed entirely from London, but just because RTD is Welsh...

Exactly!!

If you know what you say wont cause offence to the person you are saying it too, then you are "empowered" to say exactly what you like.

However I personally find "Faggot" a vulgar word. Also "Queer" used out of context is highly offensive as well.

If the N word had been used anywhere on these forums the thread would be pulled and the user would of had a lifetime ban.

Yet again it appears that Homophobia is not taken as seriously.

Er so by that you mean gay people should find heterosexual people kissing repulsive too? Its just kissing for goodness sake...! I like that they play free and lose with people's sexuality in torchwood, it keeps the sexual tension flowing in all directions and it give it a sense of reality - yes, strangely enough, lots of people are gay, bi and whatever in real life - shock, horror!.... its nice to see a sci-fi action show that bends those rules... it would've been so easy to go the other way...

I think torchwood is great... its witty, funny, inventive (sometimes a bit naff too tho) ... I particulary like the way it turns convetion on its head... Such as who the hero fancies... This makes the show...

Me too
I agree with all of that.

I do take it very seriously but at the same time I can differentiate between a friend saying light heartedly.."you are so queer/gay" or "you are such a fag" and me laughing in response because I most probably have and someone saying it in a hostile or aggressive kind of way.

A number of characters in QAF used those terms about themselves.

And the shows like QAF - whilst ground breaking in themselves, show the wrong side of it in my opinion. I understand what RTD was doing when he wrote it, and he wrote it to the extreme in every way possible. Those words in the past were used in a homophobic way, and still are, and I really believe that most gay people use them as a way to take the mick out of themselves. I know the country has gone to pot with PC, but just sometimes, it is possible to offend.