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Sir Cliff says Beatles were often out of tune
kimindex
14-02-2008
I don't hear it, but I'm not a musician. Does anyone else? It it seen as sacrilege to criticise the Beatles? I love them and don't love Sir Cliff, apart from the odd song. He also criticises Elvis for being too cabaret at the end of his life (and refused to have his photo taken with him because Elvis was too fat). Fair comment but Bachelor Boy anyone?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1773

Quote:
“
Mr Nice: Sir Cliff has broken character to launch an attack on The Beatles. Sir Cliff Richard has launched an astonishing attack on The Beatles, claiming some of their music was "horrific" because it was "out of tune".
Sir Cliff, who has a reputation as pop's Mr Nice, maintained some was so off-tune it was "unbelievable" – and "unforgivable".

Later, in the interview with Q Magazine, he was quick to point out he had achieved things that The Beatles had not.”

(I read the original article in Q and this is a fair representation of what he said. The Q website doesn't seem to be working at the moment
http://www.q4music.com/ )
Plug In Baby
14-02-2008
i read that in Q magazine!i was quite shocked to be honest coz i've never thought of The Beatles as being out of tune, don't really know where he's got that from. doubt the opinion of cliff richard's gonna upset too many beatles fans tho

xx
popalong
14-02-2008
The Beatles voices weren't as smooth as Cliffs, but they certainly were not out of tune. As for the Elvis being a 'Cabaret' act in his later years comment, it's absolute tosh. Elvis was touring the same as any of todays acts are in their later careers so if he was a cabaret act then I guess the Stones and the Eagles and even Cliff himself are

And not wanting a photo with Elvis because he was fat is just pure idiocy. Imagine every Cliff fan saying they don't want a photo with Cliff because he's old now, how would he feel? You didn't post the part where he says he regrets not having that photo in the end.
Sloopy
14-02-2008
:yawn:

And there we were thinking Sir Cliff only crawled out from his box once a year to release the obligatory Christmas tune.
Glawster2002
14-02-2008
Quote:
“Mr Nice: Sir Cliff has broken character to launch an attack on The Beatles. Sir Cliff Richard has launched an astonishing attack on The Beatles, claiming some of their music was "horrific" because it was "out of tune". ”

Millennium Prayer anyone?
kimindex
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by popalong:
“The Beatles voices weren't as smooth as Cliffs, but they certainly were not out of tune. As for the Elvis being a 'Cabaret' act in his later years comment, it's absolute tosh. Elvis was touring the same as any of todays acts are in their later careers so if he was a cabaret act then I guess the Stones and the Eagles and even Cliff himself are

And not wanting a photo with Elvis because he was fat is just pure idiocy. Imagine every Cliff fan saying they don't want a photo with Cliff because he's old now, how would he feel? You didn't post the part where he says he regrets not having that photo in the end.”

I don't think cabaret just refers to the fact he was touring but what he was singing. He also wasn't playing stadiums but cabaret venues. I like Elvis and that doesn't put me off him. And I love American Trilogy. The comment, even if fair, just, to me, makes Cliff sound a little bit bitter. I think he wants his name mentioned in the same breath as Elvis and the Beatles.

(And, no I didn't post the part where Cliff says he regrets not having the photo taken. I didn't have to and chose not to, in not being the main point, but a subsidiary comment).
popalong
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by kimindex:
“I don't think cabaret just refers to the fact he was touring but what he was singing.”

Then Cliff isn't much of an Elvis fan if he doesn't know the non-cabaret songs Elvis did in his later years



Quote:
“He also wasn't playing stadiums but cabaret venues.”

I don't consider Madison Square Garden, the Houston Astrodome or the concert he did in Hawaii to be Cabaret Venues. Elvis didn't play many concert venues (if any) that held less than 20,000 people, not what I'd class cabaret venues. As or Vegas, it has and always will be the town that the best of the best will perform at eventually in their careers. Again, I don't class it as cabaret when the worlds biggest stars are playing there for huge sums of money for only a few years work, and some of those venues hold thousands in one sitting.

Quote:
“I like Elvis and that doesn't put me off him. And I love American Trilogy. The comment, even if fair, just, to me, makes Cliff sound a little bit bitter. I think he wants his name mentioned in the same breath as Elvis and the Beatles.”

I agree, Cliff seems a little bitter that he isn't loved as much as he thinks he should be.

Quote:
“(And, no I didn't post the part where Cliff says he regrets not having the photo taken. I didn't have to and chose not to, in not being the main point, but a subsidiary comment).”

I think if you're going to put a quote of anyone saying anything it's only fair to put the whole quote, otherwise it is easy for people to jump to the wrong conclusions. Yes, Cliff said he didn't want that photo because Elvis was fat, but he also said he regretted it deeply which makes the story a little more fair to him. IMO of course

Cliff has achieved many things in his career, but he won't ever be up there with the Beatles or Elvis, he just needs to learn to accept that.
SparkleBabe
14-02-2008
Cliff is basically still bitter about them nearly half a century later. He needs to get over it.

He was Britain's biggest pop act in the late 50's and early 60's and then The Beatles came along and he was suddenly second best. Then he had to sit back and watch them crack America and conquer the world, which must have been hugely gut wrenching for him Im sure

Im also sick of him harping on about how he's the only artist to have #1 singles in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. He's desperate to get one in the 00's too, which aint going to happen, Im also not sure of what he's getting so wound up about. No one is likely to break his record in the forseeable future are they?
Alrightmate
14-02-2008
Better to create great music which may not always be in tune than creating crap music which is always perfectly in tune.

I think he has issues with the fact that a lot of people liked The Beatles' music rather than being bothered about the occasional note being out of tune.

Who cares Cliff?
I don't think that anybody else is really bothered about the odd duff note as long as the music is great and moves something within people.

He must be really confused because he appears to reckon that playing every note perfectly in tune is somehow more important than the creativity of music in general.
Somebody should play him a Punk album and really irritate him about why people took to it as he was left in the dust being pedantic about musical notes being in perfect tune.
Randy Gibbons
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“Better to create great music which may not always be in tune than creating crap music which is always perfectly in tune.

I think he has issues with the fact that a lot of people liked The Beatles' music rather than being bothered about the occasional note being out of tune.

Who cares Cliff?
I don't think that anybody else is really bothered about the odd duff note as long as the music is great and moves something within people.

He must be really confused because he appears to reckon that playing every note perfectly in tune is somehow more important than the creativity of music in general.
Somebody should play him a Punk album and really irritate him about why people took to it as he was left in the dust being pedantic about musical notes being in perfect tune.”

Completely agree. Pop music is more about spirit and energy than achieving musical perfection.
bengos#
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by Randy Gibbons:
“Completely agree. Pop music is more about spirit and energy than achieving musical perfection.”

Indeed, and what's amusing is that Cliff doesn't have either of those talents!
Sloopy
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by Glawster2002:
“Millennium Prayer anyone? ”

Worst. Song. Ever.
jackol
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by popalong:
“Then Cliff isn't much of an Elvis fan if he doesn't know the non-cabaret songs Elvis did in his later years





I don't consider Madison Square Garden, the Houston Astrodome or the concert he did in Hawaii to be Cabaret Venues. Elvis didn't play many concert venues (if any) that held less than 20,000 people, not what I'd class cabaret venues. As or Vegas, it has and always will be the town that the best of the best will perform at eventually in their careers. Again, I don't class it as cabaret when the worlds biggest stars are playing there for huge sums of money for only a few years work, and some of those venues hold thousands in one sitting.



I agree, Cliff seems a little bitter that he isn't loved as much as he thinks he should be.



I think if you're going to put a quote of anyone saying anything it's only fair to put the whole quote, otherwise it is easy for people to jump to the wrong conclusions. Yes, Cliff said he didn't want that photo because Elvis was fat, but he also said he regretted it deeply which makes the story a little more fair to him. IMO of course

Cliff has achieved many things in his career, but he won't ever be up there with the Beatles or Elvis, he just needs to learn to accept that.”

What a ridiculously inaccurate post. Cliff said Elvis did cabaret at the end of his career, he did. The 3 venues you mentioned were a lot earlier. Elvis never played in front of less than 20,000 people!, are you real? The vast majority of Elvis shows from 73-death were in Vegas showrooms. Where did you get your info from?
http://www.elvisconcerts.com/
popalong
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by jackol:
“What a ridiculously inaccurate post. Cliff said Elvis did cabaret at the end of his career, he did.”

Then you are inaccurate, because Elvis did not do Cabaret at the end of his career. He toured like the Stones do today, like the Eagles do today, like Cliff himself does today. And anyone who, like myself, has listened to 99% of Presley's output will know he didn't do Cabaret.



Quote:
“The 3 venues you mentioned were a lot earlier.”

I didn't say they weren't a lot earlier, but 72/73 were still late years in the career of Elvis, and by no means cabaret venues. He played similar venues right up until his death, not quite as big or well known, but certainly never a few thousand people only.


Quote:
“Elvis never played in front of less than 20,000 people!, are you real?”

I didn't say that. I said the majority of the time he didn't. There were shows he played on tour which were less but very few, because of Col. Parker.

Quote:
“The vast majority of Elvis shows from 73-death were in Vegas showrooms. Where did you get your info from?
http://www.elvisconcerts.com/”


I am very well aware of that site, thank you, but I also have many books regarding Elvis and they show that the vast majority of his later years were not spent in Vegas. He did play a lot of Vegas shows, but only over a month or so a couple of times a year, he didn't spend all year there.

Below is where I got my information, and as you can see for 75-77 he played hell of a lot more than just Vegas, and not small venues either.

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...along1/001.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...along1/002.jpg

And from 70-74 the list is very similar.


It appears my post wasn't so ridiculously inaccurate after all.
gazwah
14-02-2008
Poor Cliff, getting all bitter in his old age. Whats he gonna say next? Johnny Rotten sang out of tune? Rock'n'roll is'nt all about being smooth Cliff.
popalong
14-02-2008
Originally Posted by jackol:
“ Elvis never played in front of less than 20,000 people!, are you real? [/url]”

I meant to say in my last post I meant 10,000 not 20,000, fat fingers
Smudgie
15-02-2008
Probably quite hard to stay in tune when you're playing in front of hundreds of screaming girls and can't hear yourself properly.
major winters
15-02-2008
I can't believe I agree with Cliff Richard!
I know all you Beatles fans will be going apes**t but the man does have a point. Furthermore, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion.
lilseanb
15-02-2008
listen to the long and winding road, theres several points where they are out of tune... infact the opening line is definetly out of tune.

Still even though they werent the best singers and not really my cup of tea i still think they are ledges for their influences on popular music
ags_rule
15-02-2008
Since when was rock n' roll about perfect vocals?
Alrightmate
15-02-2008
Originally Posted by major winters:
“I can't believe I agree with Cliff Richard!
I know all you Beatles fans will be going apes**t but the man does have a point. Furthermore, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion.”

Why do you assume that everybody here are Beatles fans?
I'm not what you'd call a Beatles fan.
And who's going 'apeshit'? I don't see anybody going apeshit.

He has a point?
What point is that?
He may have made a casual observation, but I don't really see what the exact point of that is. Or at least I don't see the significance of any point he may be making.

He is entitled to his opinion. Nobody said that he wasn't.
But if somebody puts their opinion out into the public domain then I presume that people are supposed to listen to what he wants us to hear.

So likewise, people are entitled to have an opinion about his opinion. We can't just be all expected to listen to his opinion which he has put out into the public domain and blindly agree with it. If you put an opinion out there for people to hear then you have to expect people to disagree with it.
Alrightmate
15-02-2008
Originally Posted by lilseanb:
“listen to the long and winding road, theres several points where they are out of tune... infact the opening line is definetly out of tune.

Still even though they werent the best singers and not really my cup of tea i still think they are ledges for their influences on popular music”

Well what does he expect us to do about it?
He's telling us that it is 'unforgivable'.

He appears to be trying to preach to us about what is good and bad about music.
I think we can make our own minds up.
If the songs he criticises were out of tune, but they still worked for people, who is he to tell us we are wrong for liking them?
There's no 'horrific', or 'unbelievable' about those songs if that's not what people feel.

He's saying that their music somehow needs justification for itself when he tells us that it's 'unforgivable'.

He's preaching to the public that his subjective definition of what good music is about is the correct one, and which should be strictly adhered to. Otherwise it breaks his perfect notation rule and is unforgivable.
It's a bit strong isn't it?

What's he going to think if some other person defines his own music as being perfectly in tune, but completely soulless, spiritless, stuck to strict formulaic guidelines, and so commercially orientated and bland that it's so 'unforgiveable' that we demand an apology from him?

Personally I think sometimes music can just simply work if there is a creative ethic behind it. Sometimes the singing may be rough, the production may be rough, the music may not follow traditional rules and guidelines,... but it works.
Nobody needs to be forgiven for that.
ags_rule
15-02-2008
Sir Cliff is deluded enough to think he's "the most radical rockstar ever". So he puts himself above The Beatles, Elvis, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Sex Pistols, Guns N' Roses, Sabbath, Metallica, Megadeth, Pantera - all bands which have had more influence on rock/metal music than Cliff ever did.
The Spoon
15-02-2008
I was not much of a Cliff fan, but I saw him about 25 years ago and TBH he was very good in performance - I went with friends to see him again and he rather won me over. I wasn't keen, but I was impressed.

with our modern take on Cliff as "Mr Clean" it is easy to forget that when he started, England (or India!) did not have rock stars as such - the nearest to Cliff might have been Lonnie Donnegan or somebody like that - when you hear "Move It" now, it's just like a rocknroll standard and the Shadows are somewhat "easy listening" - but back then, the Shadows were rock and roll - electric guitars in the foreground etc - it is very difficult for the modern generation (even me, born a long time after Cliff started having hits) to understand how Cliff and Elvis were chart rivals - Elvis was massive, but Cliff was number 2. Cliff has always demnstrated an in-depth knowledge of his charting round the world - it sounds arrogant, but when you were number 2 to Elvis and had a chance of out-doing him in your part of the world, a bit of vanity is permissible.

Cliff was a massive star - not just the slightly querrulous pensioner he is now. I saw him when he was nearer the end of his rock and roll phase ('We don't talk anymore' and 'Wired for Sound') - and he was becoming 'easy listening' - but his career was considerably longer than Elvis managed, even though Elvis had more world-wide impact overall.

I recommend having a listen to his more rock and roll material - or, at his pop best with "Devil Woman".

he was a lot better than people remember.
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