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Jon McClure slams Leona!!


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Old 25-02-2008, 17:56
flagpole77
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However, her album certainly has that overly produced, aimed-at-everyone sound to it. She may not come into her own until she can break away from her current management team.
She and they are aiming for the international pop/RnB market though, not some artistic niche. As such the album and its production surely should be judged within that market, not judged as an attempt at a new groundbreaking sound it was never intended to be.
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Old 25-02-2008, 17:57
Alrightmate
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Here's another of Leona's songs just come up on youtube.

She cowrote some tracks with Saleem Remi as did Amy Winehouse

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V2srkkzX2UI
LOL...when I started that song I immediately thought of Amy Winehouse when I heard that piano and the chords

Thanks for the link. Personally I think that music's much better than the previous Leona stuff I've heard.

But, it doesn't change my opinion with the points that I've put across. The music I'm hearing is Saleem Remi.
That song reminded me so much of Amy Winehouse stuff that I'm even less convinced of Leona's input than I was before.

You say 'co-wrote', but what actually did she write?
Co-written can mean anything from most of the song, to just a little vocal trill here and there, or even just one line.

I remember the same conflict of points of view here a few years ago with Alex Parks from Fame Academy. Exactly the same credentials were used to defend her creative talent 'She writes her own material you know'. But as soon as she separated from her record company, she's gone, vanished, nowhere to be seen.

Mark Ronson also appears to be a current flavour of the month. He is credited for the last Amy Winehouse album 'Back to Black', but I'm wondering if Saleem Remi has been severely overlooked in favour of Mark Ronson and is very underrated. Yet Saleem Remi was supposed to have shared equal production credits with Mark Ronson on the album 'Back to Black'.
Because I couldn't help feeling that bits of that Leona song you've linked to reminded me of sections of the song 'Back to Black'.

Thanks for the link though. Not a bad song at all. Much better than previous songs I've heard Leona sing to.

But to me, that song sounds very much to me to be a Saleen Remi song, rather than written by Leona Lewis.
Co-written? What was her actual input?

It's like Simon Cowell has noticed that Amy Winehouse is getting more attention and seen as a 'credible artist' due to her last album which was ALSO A HIT, then gotten hold of Saleem Remi and asked him to do a record that sounds sort of a bit like 'Back to Black'

That was my instant thought as soon as I heard the first few bars. Simon just looks as though he wants to try and cash in on the Amy Winehouse thing at the moment and do a 'Back to Black' type clone. Or at least capture some of the ingredients there that did well for Amy Winehouse.

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Old 25-02-2008, 18:11
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You say that you still like 'Bleeding Love'. That's fine, I don't intend to try to stop you liking it. It has a tune, it's sung well, it's a conventional pop song with nothing unusual about it, it's functional and does it's job.
If you enjoy it than carry on enjoying it, I'm not going to even try to stop you doing that.
Like you said in your first post though, many backing singers are often excellent, some even better than the act they support. So to me Leona is just another technician. I say 'just' but I don't want to undermine that because it's still a skill and an ability, but she's just another musical instrument, just used like a producer might want to use any other particular instrument like a violin or a guitar.
Leona is just like a musical instrument which can be an option from a palette of other musical options available to the producer.
She's just there to be played (in more than one sense of the word) like a session guitarist may come into the studio to pick up a guitar and play it.
we agree to a considerable degree, it seems.

you'll have noticed that I didn't 'buy in' to the Cowell interpretation of Leona - I listened to her performances and thought that she had performed well. I didn't buy the 'secretary' story - so what? was my reaction. I just liked her and Ben Mills as two ends of the smoothness spectrum. Strangely, having been most interested in those two acts that series, it turned out that Leona was a friend of a friend and that I'd probably seen Ben Mills when he did a low-profile gig low down on a festival bill soon after he had started out. I have never argued on the basis of what Simon said, but rather on what I observed - that Leona is a technically good singer and that I liked her performances.
I've also qualified by saying that in my opinion Beverley Knight is a better performer, even though I can't recall BK attempting some of the vocal acrobatics that Leona can - with BK, it is her tone of voice, phrasing and, having subsequently seen her live, her sheer stage presence.

some performers just have that something (the XF!) that makes people take notice of them - Steve Harley is like that - his biggest hit was 20+ years ago, yet on stage - he demands attention - yet his voice is not particularly good technically. Hugh Cornwell (of the Stranglers) or Ian Dury - both acts I have seen more than once, Hazel O'Connor, Eddi Reader, Chris Difford, Glen Tilbrook and Jools Holland (Squeeze) - they all have one thing in common - they all have an innate stage presence, which engages the audience so that whether they sing the most complex vocals or not, the crowd are engaged.

Freddie Mercury was exceptional - to my mind, he was the epitome of what a rock star could achieve in that aspect of performance - not only did he have amazing stage presence, he also had good technical ability - but how would he get on in something like XF? no chance.

I don't know if Leona has that or not - when she won, I suggested that putting her on tour on a bill with some really good audience-worker would teach her how to develop that skill. I thought BK would be around the right level of maturity (she had Louise Setara as one of her support acts on the tour I saw).

I think programmes like XF are devalued as competition and as entertainment by the emphasis on voting for 'favourites' - it hardly depends on a particular week's performance and there is far too much back-story to the acts. as a result, I decided just to try to enjoy the performances and not get so worked up about the injustices some performers suffer. I have noticed that singers from either a rock or soul background never seem to get as far as they deserve and I put that down to the demographic of the voting audience. when I listen to a fantastic album, I often think that the act would have got nowhere on the likes of XF.
I was listening to CDs on a journey - Aretha Franklin, Janis Joplin, Bob Dylan, Rod Stewart - none would have done OK. the only CD I listened to where the singer might have stood a chance was Cher and she'd have been kicked off for being over 25.

I think Leona needs to learn from the right kind of performers and not be mis-packaged.
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Old 25-02-2008, 18:41
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The Spoon,....yes we do agree on a lot.

I just want to make it clear that everything in my post wasn't directed on how I think you think. Things I mentioned like buying into X Factor marketing and promotion was just speaking generally.

You mention some good examples of acts who aren't necessarily known as great singers, but do have a lot about them creatively and in style that works.
As a previous poster said, they'd probably have absolutely no chance of getting through on the X Factor.

This is what I see as the fundamental problem with the X Factor, and the current manifesto of the music industry. It's all about fast tracking people through the system who they think they can use to earn a fast buck, and they simply don't want to let things develop naturally and see what rises to the surface. They appear to want to keep those acts down so that there is only room for their chosen favourites to prosper.

I'm aware that it's always been the case that record companies have been like that. But not the extent they are now, where NOTHING has much of a chance of breaking through unless they say so.
In previous decades there was so much diversity in music. Yes, the more commercially 'pop' orientated acts were there, but now with the overwhelming power of the media nothing else has a cat in hell's chance of being seen, let alone break through. The power of big business and marketing is so powerful now that they can pretty much overwhelm the market with the most commercially sounding 'pop' and ensure that nothing else can get a look in. Such is the power over the market in the media now.
Now the media present us with pseudo-credible, they attach the 'image' of credible to an act in order to make the most diluted pop music appear as though it's genuine talent that just happens to have been discovered off the street.
Yes, it's happened a lot before too, but now it's too much.

Now they're using that form of spin on us in order to promote 'pop' acts who are very much selected to represent 'credible', the truly original or interesting music has an almost impossible task of breaking through.

A lot of music seems bland right now probably because the underground flavours and influences which used to influence the pop mainstream a few years later down the road have been all but cut off for a few years now.
It always used to be the case that commercial pop would often borrow a lot from underground musical influences from a few years previous that were shown to be popular with a section of people. Pop would come along and borrow and steal to make those sounds popular to MANY people.

Cut the underground off and not give it a chance to have a bit of success in it's own right, then a few years down the line pop music will suffer because it there won't be anything there to pilfer and steal from.

Nothing wrong with pop in itself, there are often good pop songs that have mass appeal, but I think that you need to have a good balance between mainstream pop and the other interesting diverse sounds that come from less commercially mainstream music. I think that there should be a healthier balance between mainstream pop music, and the underground sounds which used to be still allowed a degree of success.
I think the balance right now is well off.
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Old 25-02-2008, 18:58
flagpole77
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It's like Simon Cowell has noticed that Amy Winehouse is getting more attention and seen as a 'credible artist' due to her last album which was ALSO A HIT, then gotten hold of Saleem Remi and asked him to do a record that sounds sort of a bit like 'Back to Black'
This B-side would have been recorded at least 6 months ago along with many other songs which didn't make the album. The other Saleem Remi/Lewis collaboration so far released was the B-side to Bleeding Love which had much more of a Christina Aguilera vibe to it.
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Old 25-02-2008, 19:07
flagpole77
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This is what I see as the fundamental problem with the X Factor, and the current manifesto of the music industry. It's all about fast tracking people through the system who they think they can use to earn a fast buck, and they simply don't want to let things develop naturally and see what rises to the surface. They appear to want to keep those acts down so that there is only room for their chosen favourites to prosper.

I'm aware that it's always been the case that record companies have been like that. But not the extent they are now, where NOTHING has much of a chance of breaking through unless they say so.

In previous decades there was so much diversity in music. Yes, the more commercially 'pop' orientated acts were there, but now with the overwhelming power of the media nothing else has a cat in hell's chance of being seen, let alone break through. The power of big business and marketing is so powerful now that they can pretty much overwhelm the market with the most commercially sounding 'pop' and ensure that nothing else can get a look in. Such is the power over the market in the media now.

Now the media present us with pseudo-credible, they attach the 'image' of credible to an act in order to make the most diluted pop music appear as though it's genuine talent that just happens to have been discovered off the street.
Yes, it's happened a lot before too, but now it's too much.
Isn't this more a case of "the grass was greener in my day". All generations have claimed the same.

To me there's as much diffirentiation in the charts now as there ever has been. If not more. In many ways the digitisation of music has made it truly democratic at last and fans can't be dictated to, and can't have their access to music restricted as they could in the pre-digital age where record companies could effectively dictate what the large stores stocked and the TV shows and radio played.

The X-Factor is a tiny % of the overall music market and shouldn't be assumed to have much importance in the grand scheme of things because it doesn't.
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Old 25-02-2008, 19:15
The Spoon
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The X-Factor is a tiny % of the overall music market and shouldn't be assumed to have much importance in the grand scheme of things because it doesn't.

except that the Christmas no.1 was never predictable before...
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Old 25-02-2008, 19:53
flagpole77
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except that the Christmas no.1 was never predictable before...
Yes it was never predictable - except when Cliff Richard always got it. Or the years it was dominated by the Spice Girls. Or whenever Band Aid release Do They Know It's Christmas for the 15th time. Or when Postman Pat/Bob The Builder/Mr Blobby release a novelty record.

The Christmas number 1 has been entirely predictable for donkeys years and there's only been 2 or 3 credible Xmas number 1s since 1980.

Basing your view of the state on the British Record Industry on what the Christmas Number 1 is given the appalling records that have held the spot isn't the best of ideas.
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Old 25-02-2008, 19:57
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I love Amy Winehouse - and I love that Leona song B side or whatever - love it!

I'm a bit disappointed in a way though - as I'm wondering how much of Back to Black is actually Amy's work, and how much is Saleem Remi???

I downloaded back to black and haven't seen the writing credits - does anyone know what they say?

Sorry to hijack the thread - I do like You Bring Me Down though:lol:
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Old 25-02-2008, 21:30
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I love Amy Winehouse - and I love that Leona song B side or whatever - love it!

I'm a bit disappointed in a way though - as I'm wondering how much of Back to Black is actually Amy's work, and how much is Saleem Remi???

I downloaded back to black and haven't seen the writing credits - does anyone know what they say?

Sorry to hijack the thread - I do like You Bring Me Down though:lol:
Both Amy and Leona would have provided the majority of the lyrics and they would have worked round a piano to find a nice chord structure and rework the lyrics to fit.

The studio is where the Saleem sound is applied, you can tell immediately with the piano intro and bassline.

They would have recorded dozens of tracks. Although this a great track, in the end, they would have worked on an overall album sound and use tracks which fit together. This tracks sound doesn't match the album sound they decided on.
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Old 25-02-2008, 22:46
utoia2007
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LOL...when I started that song I immediately thought of Amy Winehouse when I heard that piano and the chords

Thanks for the link. Personally I think that music's much better than the previous Leona stuff I've heard.

But, it doesn't change my opinion with the points that I've put across. The music I'm hearing is Saleem Remi.
That song reminded me so much of Amy Winehouse stuff that I'm even less convinced of Leona's input than I was before.

You say 'co-wrote', but what actually did she write?
Co-written can mean anything from most of the song, to just a little vocal trill here and there, or even just one line.

I remember the same conflict of points of view here a few years ago with Alex Parks from Fame Academy. Exactly the same credentials were used to defend her creative talent 'She writes her own material you know'. But as soon as she separated from her record company, she's gone, vanished, nowhere to be seen.

Mark Ronson also appears to be a current flavour of the month. He is credited for the last Amy Winehouse album 'Back to Black', but I'm wondering if Saleem Remi has been severely overlooked in favour of Mark Ronson and is very underrated. Yet Saleem Remi was supposed to have shared equal production credits with Mark Ronson on the album 'Back to Black'.
Because I couldn't help feeling that bits of that Leona song you've linked to reminded me of sections of the song 'Back to Black'.

Thanks for the link though. Not a bad song at all. Much better than previous songs I've heard Leona sing to.

But to me, that song sounds very much to me to be a Saleen Remi song, rather than written by Leona Lewis.
Co-written? What was her actual input?

It's like Simon Cowell has noticed that Amy Winehouse is getting more attention and seen as a 'credible artist' due to her last album which was ALSO A HIT, then gotten hold of Saleem Remi and asked him to do a record that sounds sort of a bit like 'Back to Black'

That was my instant thought as soon as I heard the first few bars. Simon just looks as though he wants to try and cash in on the Amy Winehouse thing at the moment and do a 'Back to Black' type clone. Or at least capture some of the ingredients there that did well for Amy Winehouse.

A few things dont make sense in your argument, if simon wanted to cash in on the amy winehouse sound then why on earth did he leave it off the album- it could of been a single but yet its a b-side.

Saleen Remi is a hot producer so obviously if they use him its going to have his sound, and i dont actualy think this sounds that much like anything on wine houses album, its more modern sounding than anything on hers. And cant you say that about amywinehouse, her album is saleen remis sound not hers since he produced basically her whole album?
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Old 25-02-2008, 22:49
utoia2007
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Isn't this more a case of "the grass was greener in my day". All generations have claimed the same.

To me there's as much diffirentiation in the charts now as there ever has been. If not more. In many ways the digitisation of music has made it truly democratic at last and fans can't be dictated to, and can't have their access to music restricted as they could in the pre-digital age where record companies could effectively dictate what the large stores stocked and the TV shows and radio played.

The X-Factor is a tiny % of the overall music market and shouldn't be assumed to have much importance in the grand scheme of things because it doesn't.
It only has importance to music snobs and those who consider them selves the 'music elitie'. It doesnt effect artists because most winners hardly ever do well, barr leona.
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Old 25-02-2008, 23:26
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A few things dont make sense in your argument, if simon wanted to cash in on the amy winehouse sound then why on earth did he leave it off the album- it could of been a single but yet its a b-side.

Saleen Remi is a hot producer so obviously if they use him its going to have his sound, and i dont actualy think this sounds that much like anything on wine houses album, its more modern sounding than anything on hers. And cant you say that about amywinehouse, her album is saleen remis sound not hers since he produced basically her whole album?
I would have thought it's a collaboration between the artist and the producer. And I can't hear any similarity between Leona and Amy even with the same producer. You may as well say that Quincy Jones produced albums are all going to sound like Michael Jackson. A lot of it depends on how much input the artist has. I'd take a guess that Leona was more malleable than Amy.
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Old 26-02-2008, 00:00
Alrightmate
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I love Amy Winehouse - and I love that Leona song B side or whatever - love it!

I'm a bit disappointed in a way though - as I'm wondering how much of Back to Black is actually Amy's work, and how much is Saleem Remi???

I downloaded back to black and haven't seen the writing credits - does anyone know what they say?

Sorry to hijack the thread - I do like You Bring Me Down though:lol:
Lol...I actually wondered the same thing on another thread where that B side has been posted.
I too would feel a bit disappointed too, I even feel guilty for wondering, because I feel slightly misled by things and was led to believe that Amy actually did pretty much write her own songs. I knew that Salaam Remi and Mark Ronson produced her songs, but I didn't think that they wrote ALL the music for her. That would be a crushing let-down for me.
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Old 26-02-2008, 00:14
utoia2007
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I would have thought it's a collaboration between the artist and the producer. And I can't hear any similarity between Leona and Amy even with the same producer. You may as well say that Quincy Jones produced albums are all going to sound like Michael Jackson. A lot of it depends on how much input the artist has. I'd take a guess that Leona was more malleable than Amy.
Well thats if you think these two tracks sound that much alike, which i dont, the writing reminds me of leonas twilight days so i think leona had a large input, more than you will give her credit for.
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Old 26-02-2008, 00:37
utoia2007
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It's okay, no problem. I could tell that it was just accidental.

Thanks for this honest and fair post that I'm responding to as well.
We probably agree on lots of things. It's just that with this Leona Lewis thing we simply differ in taste.
I think you can probably tell that it's not Leona herself that I'm having a go at, and that the weight of most of my criticism is aimed more towards the machine behind her.

Personally I would like to see what she would do if she was allowed to create her own material and perform her own material. At the moment that's not really possible, although I believed that she asked Simon Cowell if she could put some input into her album. How much input she was allowed is questionable. I'd guess not that much.

Personally I think that Leona is a very good singer. It's just that when words like 'talented' and 'artist' are applied to her, it often appears to be said in relation to her actual material as though it's her music and her songs.
Maybe this is a reason why she didn't win a Brit Award, and other acts possibly won some due to creating their own material, whether that material is any good or not. (Not that the Brits mean much anyway). Maybe that's why Rihanna also missed out too.

Leona has writing talent and she is an artist, you seem to think you know so much about her talents and what she can do. Us fans have heard all of her previous material before she won the xfactor, her album twilight which she wrote her self, and she has talent in this area too. Your making assumptions based on her current album which in all fairness to her she hasnt been given much creative control, she has 3 credits on the album and plenty of other tracks which are turning up as b-sides. Anyway hopefully by her next album she will have more creative control and people will be able to see that she what we have already seen- that she is an artist not just a singer.
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Old 26-02-2008, 00:48
utoia2007
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I would have thought it's a collaboration between the artist and the producer. And I can't hear any similarity between Leona and Amy even with the same producer. You may as well say that Quincy Jones produced albums are all going to sound like Michael Jackson. A lot of it depends on how much input the artist has. I'd take a guess that Leona was more malleable than Amy.
Well if you believe some, amy wouldnt appear to be that malleable either, since her track apparently sounds the same as leonas, so saleen remi had the most input on both. I dont think its the case because im not seeing this massive similarity, maybe im hearing something different.
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Old 26-02-2008, 01:04
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tonight I listened to "Lady Sings the blues" a double CD compilation going back to Billy Holliday including Sarah Vaughan, Julie London, Erma Franklin, Ella Fitzgerald etc and ending up with Norah Jones - I followed up with Christina Aguilera's "Stripped".

quality artists who have been mentioned in this thread.

Quincy Jones - did "the Italian Job" theme - amazing insight to write the Self-Preservation Society - top producer.

Can we agree that Jon McClure is a relative nobody who has got recognition for jumping on a critical bandwagon?

maybe Leona won't rise to the heights of Ella or Julie, but she looks like doing better than Mr Jealous. He might as well record Peter Green's "Green Manalishi (with the a two pronged crown)" - his version would doubtless be shit compared to Fleetwood Mac's, but at least he'd get his jealousy out in the open. come to think of it - "jealous guy" hasn't been a hot for a while...
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Old 26-02-2008, 01:49
flagpole77
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I would have thought it's a collaboration between the artist and the producer. And I can't hear any similarity between Leona and Amy even with the same producer. You may as well say that Quincy Jones produced albums are all going to sound like Michael Jackson. A lot of it depends on how much input the artist has. I'd take a guess that Leona was more malleable than Amy.
Or Amy was more malleable than Leona

It's a murky world deciding who did what in the recording industry ....
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Old 26-02-2008, 07:14
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Or Amy was more malleable than Leona

It's a murky world deciding who did what in the recording industry ....
Well possibly, but I'm going by what I've seen of Leona's personality. She doesn't appear to have a lot of attitude so that was a guess. It wasn't meant to be a dig at her, just an observation.

Also, I don't find the songs sound similar at all so I'm not sure where this idea that Salaam Remi has a sound that supercedes the artists input, has come from.
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Old 09-03-2008, 00:14
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In YOUR opinion, ofcourse.
Yes, hence me saying it. Duh!
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Old 09-03-2008, 00:50
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isn't this thread tired an due to be put to sleep?
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Old 09-03-2008, 00:51
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Maybe, but I've been banned for 2 weeks and haven't had a chance to post.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:12
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He is talking rubbish.. She is a talented singer.
Maybe the case but god she's ugly.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:49
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Heavyweight Champion on the world was one of the few songs to keep growing and growing in the charts last year. So Alot of people will disagree with you.

I'd rather listen to THE worst music in the world if it was written by that artist than some bland MOR rubbish performed by someone with the right look and voice
Why would you want to listen to something that was even worse then bland MOR rubbish?

Re that and other posts, I don't "get" why people think it's so important that artists perform their own material.

Virtually no one thinks that what actors do is worthless unless they've also written and directed the thing, so why is it so different when we move from film or theatre to music?

And not even to all music. Classical musicians often aren't performing their own material, yet that's not thought to fatally discredit them. Sinatra didn't write his own songs, yet it's at least uncommon to hear anyone say that makes him worse than anyone who did.

Or if a band is performing one of their own songs, often it will have been written by only one or two members. That the others aren't performing their own material doesn't make what they do rubbish, does it?

I can understand the objection to formulaic and MOR music, but then the problem is that the music is formulaic or MOR, regardless of who wrote it. Surely formulaic music doesn't suddenly become good when someone's performing their own!

last time i listened, his band were getting pretty endlessy repeated on commercial radio. the term manufactured isnt getting used properly anymore, and while not a fan i do know that she has been doing this a while, this has just given her break and she's got the talent to carry it off.
Since I seldom listen to commercial radio these days, that might explain why I can't recall ever hearing of him or of his band.
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