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Murdoch's NDS Being Sued (merged)


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Old 25-03-2008, 15:41
Rapture TV
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BSkyB's supplier of Conditional Access NDS is being sued by Dish TV owner Echostar.

Filed court documents can be found here:

http://www.rapturetv.com/news_article.php?News=20

Previous postings here on DS have been removed and or censored.

What should be done to stop companies from breaking the law?

Is NDS guilty?
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Old 25-03-2008, 16:35
daniel99
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Rapture TV have it in for SKY so they come up with a false story hoping people will swallow it.
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Old 25-03-2008, 16:52
CaffeineJunkie
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I'm not saying there isn't a story there.
I just feel that Rapture is using DS as a platform for their personal vendetta instead of a discussion forum.
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Old 25-03-2008, 16:52
Rapture TV
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Rapture TV have it in for SKY so they come up with a false story hoping people will swallow it.
If you read the documents daniel99 you might see that there is nothing false about the story.
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Old 25-03-2008, 16:55
Rapture TV
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I'm not saying there isn't a story there.
I just feel that Rapture is using DS as a platform for their personal vendetta instead of a discussion forum.
Its a very important story which is why we believe it should be discussed. Its suprising that there has been so little coverage of the case in the UK or the broadcasting press.

We will try to keep it to the facts which the case is based around.

Whats your argument for or against NDS based on the known facts?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:00
CaffeineJunkie
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Whats your argument for or against NDS based on the known facts?
I don't have a position either way. I find speculating about court cases where we are not in the same position as the judge or jury to be a pointless exercise akin to bingo hall gossip.

It very rarely reflects the actual facts of the case and is often centered around the gossipers personal opinions.

I find it ironic that this post was obviously intended to provoke a debate around NDS but that you seem to have been the main topic of debate.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:02
infiniteloop
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i've just read one of the statements....pirate card seller accuses other pirate card seller of being in cahoots with NDS. It's not exactly a compelling case. It's in no way surprising that it hasn't been in the Uk broadcasting press because it's happening in the US and canada. It's only because you've got a hissy on with Sky that you're posting it, after all. Does anyone else find it ironic that the google affiliate ads on Rapture's website have an advert for Sky TV right at the top?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:12
Rapture TV
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i've just read one of the statements....pirate card seller accuses other pirate card seller of being in cahoots with NDS. It's not exactly a compelling case. It's in no way surprising that it hasn't been in the Uk broadcasting press because it's happening in the US and canada. It's only because you've got a hissy on with Sky that you're posting it, after all. Does anyone else find it ironic that the google affiliate ads on Rapture's website have an advert for Sky TV right at the top?
Which statement are you refering to?

Sadly any google ad is not placed by Rapture. I would disagree it seems from the case document to be a very compeling case. I haven't see any of the words that you have referred to.

CaffeineJunkie it doesn't supprise that you think court documents are similar to bingo gossip. We have never been in a bingo hall but the documents seem very detailed for 'gossip'?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:17
Ben kowalski
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Why shouldn't we all read about the illegal activities of Sky and NDS? I agree with RaptureTV, they should be exposed for what they really are.

I've had my second card switched off and I cant even get my money back. I called them and was told I'm not the account holder and they wouldn't discuss anything with me.

On the other hand Insat are telling me the same thing that Sky wont discuss these accounts with them either. Sky are crooks and everybody should know this. I will wait another week or 2 and then will take legal action against them.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:23
Rapture TV
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Why shouldn't we all read about the illegal activities of Sky and NDS? I agree with RaptureTV, they should be exposed for what they really are.

I've had my second card switched off and I cant even get my money back. I called them and was told I'm not the account holder and they wouldn't discuss anything with me.

On the other hand Insat are telling me the same thing that Sky wont discuss these accounts with them either. Sky are crooks and everybody should know this. I will wait another week or 2 and then will take legal action against them.
The Sky fans don't want freedom. Only if its all glowing rose tinted 'Sky is great look at my free box' type of stuff.

The case is very important as NDS is the supplier of CA for BSkyB and is the proposed supplier of the 'Picnic' CA. If NDS is guilty of the actions as described in the court documents then the whole UK Digital TV industry are in danger of being controlled by CA supplied by NDS. This while other CA suppliers that are not involved in the 'Piracy' claims are being put at a disadvantage.

Read the documents don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:30
infiniteloop
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Why shouldn't we all read about the illegal activities of Sky and NDS? I agree with RaptureTV, they should be exposed for what they really are.

I've had my second card switched off and I cant even get my money back. I called them and was told I'm not the account holder and they wouldn't discuss anything with me.

On the other hand Insat are telling me the same thing that Sky wont discuss these accounts with them either. Sky are crooks and everybody should know this. I will wait another week or 2 and then will take legal action against them.
so you're acting illegally by using insat to supply Sky, or have been using a multiroom card illegally and you come out with this? truly, unbelievable.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:34
infiniteloop
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Which statement are you refering to?

Sadly any google ad is not placed by Rapture. I would disagree it seems from the case document to be a very compeling case. I haven't see any of the words that you have referred to.

CaffeineJunkie it doesn't supprise that you think court documents are similar to bingo gossip. We have never been in a bingo hall but the documents seem very detailed for 'gossip'?
Scullion's statement is essentially that of a pirate card supplier accusing another pirate card supplier of being supplied by NDS. His statement is based around a huge web of internet forums and aliases...it stands absolutely zero chance of being useful in court. If that's all they got, it's hopeless.

Another is from someone who worked with NDS and says nothing more than an individual who worked at NDS may have uploaded to code to the internet. Again, it's hearsay and not proof.

Have you even read them?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:38
infiniteloop
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something like that. Another victim of the cable industry's hopeless optimism and inability to do any sums. Between 1995 and 2000, every subscriber on cable was paying 1 a month of their subscription to L!VE TV. Great value eh?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:42
infiniteloop
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The case documents are important and so is the discussion. Satellite was around before Sky and as freesat shows there is more to watch on satellite tv than Sky.

Bottomline if NDS is guilty of the actions they are being accused of then your Sky box may not work for long if the UK authorities take action against NDS and stop the supply of Videoguard.

What exactly do you think is wrong with posting the thread that is of interest to many satellite users?
Why on earth would the "authorities" (who, OFCOM? hahaha!) take action against NDS, when no crime has been committed in the UK? Are you actually dreaming? Don't tell me you actually run Rapture, do you? If I had any financial interest in it, i'd be a bit worried about who was at the controls.

Even if, in your fantasy land, NDS were found to have committed a crime in the UK, let's examine the likelihood of the government shutting down the BSkyB television service. That supplies television to 8 million households.

I think there is NO chance of that happening.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:44
Ben kowalski
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so you're acting illegally by using insat to supply Sky, or have been using a multiroom card illegally and you come out with this? truly, unbelievable.
How is it illegal when there are dozens of Sky card suppliers on the net? It was not multi room and Sky knew these cards were being sold by Insat and many others for the grey market. I paid for the service so tell me how its illegal when Sky wanted to capture the European market?

You know very little about Sky's illegal activities and are full of hot air.

Just wait and see what happens over the next month or 2. There are possibly a million illegal contracts out there. I gave the operator my card number and my name, I was told that that card was registered to another person. Well I'm paying for somebody else's viewing then, or at least I was. What if I contact my credit card issuer and ask for a charge-back.

This is fraud on a big scale.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:44
Sirius
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Why on earth would the "authorities" (who, OFCOM? hahaha!) take action against NDS, when no crime has been committed in the UK? Are you actually dreaming? Don't tell me you actually run Rapture, do you? If I had any financial interest in it, i'd be a bit worried about who was at the controls.

Even if, in your fantasy land, NDS were found to have committed a crime in the UK, let's examine the likelihood of the government shutting down the BSkyB television service. That supplies television to 8 million households.

I think there is NO chance of that happening.
Just as NDS can deploy its CA in hardware that wasn't initially designed for it I'm sure Sky boxes can have their firmware and software upgraded to support another system.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:51
rai uno
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How is it illegal when there are dozens of Sky card suppliers on the net? It was not multi room and Sky knew these cards were being sold by Insat and many others for the grey market. I paid for the service so tell me how its illegal when Sky wanted to capture the European market?

You know very little about Sky's illegal activities and are full of hot air.

Just wait and see what happens over the next month or 2. There are possibly a million illegal contracts out there. I gave the operator my card number and my name, I was told that that card was registered to another person. Well I'm paying for somebody else's viewing then, or at least I was. What if I contact my credit card issuer and ask for a charge-back.

This is fraud on a big scale.
Why did you need to use an Agent rather than simply dealing direct with Sky?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:53
Rapture TV
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Why on earth would the "authorities" (who, OFCOM? hahaha!) take action against NDS, when no crime has been committed in the UK? Are you actually dreaming? Don't tell me you actually run Rapture, do you? If I had any financial interest in it, i'd be a bit worried about who was at the controls.

Even if, in your fantasy land, NDS were found to have committed a crime in the UK, let's examine the likelihood of the government shutting down the BSkyB television service. That supplies television to 8 million households.

I think there is NO chance of that happening.
No not Ofcom you are right they are unlikely to 1 understand anything more complicated than crossing the road and 2 on their past track record with regulating BSkyB unlikely to do anything.

We were thinking more along the lines of the EU competition minister (See Microsoft case) and or the SFO (Serious Fraud Office).

NDS is based in London and the codes were according to the court papers emailed to the NDS London offices before being sent on in encryted files to the US NDS offices. So if true there has been a criminal offence committed in the UK.

If action was taken it could include a banning order on the use of the technology. This would leave BSkyB without a CA system. Sky boxes would only be left with FTA channels and there would be no Pay TV services.

Rapture has spoken to both the SFO and has emailed details over to the EU competition minister. Ofcom has today received a emailed letter from Rapture highlighting the evidence in the Echostar case.

Rapture is concerned that 'Picnic' if granted the go ahead would further restrict the supply of Pay TV content and allow NDS and BSkyB to extend their control of CA to another platform. We support the use of CA but not from NDS. There are other suppliers of CA which have not been accused of illegal actions.
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:57
infiniteloop
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No not Ofcom you are right they are unlikely to 1 understand anything more complicated than crossing the road and 2 on their past track record with regulating BSkyB unlikely to do anything.

We were thinking more along the lines of the EU competition minister (See Microsoft case) and or the SFO (Serious Fraud Office).

NDS is based in London and the codes were according to the court papers emailed to the NDS London offices before being sent on in encryted files to the US NDS offices. So if true there has been a criminal offence committed in the UK.

If action was taken it could include a banning order on the use of the technology. This would leave BSkyB without a CA system. Sky boxes would only be left with FTA channels and there would be no Pay TV services.

Rapture has spoken to both the SFO and has emailed details over to the EU competition minister. Ofcom has today received a emailed letter from Rapture highlighting the evidence in the Echostar case.

Rapture is concerned that 'Picnic' if granted the go ahead would further restrict the supply of Pay TV content and allow NDS and BSkyB to extend their control of CA to another platform. We support the use of CA but not from NDS. There are other suppliers of CA which have not been accused of illegal actions.
You're dreaming, you really are. Even if found guilty of such conduct in the UK, they would be fined at best. You don't really think the government, two years at most before an election, would seek to piss Murdoch off to that extent?
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Old 25-03-2008, 17:58
infiniteloop
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Just as NDS can deploy its CA in hardware that wasn't initially designed for it I'm sure Sky boxes can have their firmware and software upgraded to support another system.
We both know that isn't going to happen, Sirius!
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Old 25-03-2008, 18:00
Rapture TV
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Just as NDS can deploy its CA in hardware that wasn't initially designed for it I'm sure Sky boxes can have their firmware and software upgraded to support another system.
You are technically correct. We have spoken to another CA supplier and asked this very question.

'If NDS was banned from supplying and the use of Videoguard was proscibed, could another CA system be downloaded onto the Sky STB's?' We were told that it could be possible.

Now therefore there would be no total loss of service from the 8.5 million homes. Only that BSkyB would no longer be in control of the platform and Sky would have to pay someone else to encrypt its Pay TV channels.

A new card would be needed and new software downloaded. It would open the DSat Pay TV market up and price competition would start to take place.

This is exactly what the UK government says is their policy. Open up markets to competition.
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Old 25-03-2008, 18:12
Sirius
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We both know that isn't going to happen, Sirius!
I didn't say it was likely only that it's technically possible. It's like HD channels on Virgin Media
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Old 25-03-2008, 18:40
derek500
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NDS is not Sky but is owned and controlled by Murdoch. Please remember the forum rules. Calling someone names is not allowed.
Actually NDS is a public corporation listed on NASDAQ.

74% of the shares are owned by News Corporation, of which the Murdoch family own about 30%.

The other 26% are publically owned.
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Old 25-03-2008, 18:58
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Nigel, I agree with every word.
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Old 25-03-2008, 19:02
Nigel Goodwin
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Nigel, I agree with every word.
I'll just get a chair and sit down!
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