Recently I wrote to ofcom:

Few weeks ago on BBC’s working lunch programme it was mentioned that all non geographical numbers: 0870, 0871, 0845, 0844 etc will be treated by all telephone companies in exactly the same rates as geographical numbers.

Please advise me from what date this will be applicable?

And the reply came:

Thank you for your email to Ofcom regarding the charges applied by telecom companies for the use of non geographic numbers.

As you may be aware, Ofcom has been undertaking a major review of regulatory policy for Number Translation Services (NTS). We have set out steps to significantly improve consumer protection and price transparency for calls to numbers beginning 087.

The planned changes to 0870 provide for the price of calls to 0870 numbers to be the same or less than calls to geographic numbers (01 & 02). These calls should also be included in call packages. If a communications provider wishes to depart from this general rule, it must arrange for free pre-call announcements, stating how much the call will cost. Ofcom has also decided to remove the regulatory support for revenue sharing on 0870 numbers.

In November 2007, Ofcom announced it would delay the implementation of the above changes. This is whilst it investigates whether problems caused by the introduction of pricing announcements on another number range might also have implications for 0870 pricing announcements.

Ofcom has identified certain 0870 services, many of which protect human life and property, where pre-call announcements cause the services to fail. For example alarm and security services using automatic dialling facilities to directly communicate with emergency services. The pre-recorded announcements may cause these safety services to fail with potentially catastrophic consequences. Therefore Ofcom will not make the changes until a satisfactory solution can be found. Ofcom is already assessing the extent of the problem and identifying potential solutions.

We will include consumers, consumer organisations and the industry through full public consultation. Ofcom was due to consult on the final regulatory process for implementing the 0870 changes in time for 1 February 2008. The consultation will proceed as planned but will be extended to include solutions for the above critical services. As a result, implementation of the consumer protection measures on 0870 will be delayed beyond 1 February 2008. Following our consultation, a statement confirming the changes is planned for spring 2008.

Furthermore, the financial terms between communications providers that offer 084 numbers and organisations that use them, are a matter for commercial negotiation and are not regulated by Ofcom. However, 08 numbers typically provide their users with a revenue sharing mechanism by which some of the call charge is shared with the organisation using the number, either directly or indirectly by offsetting the cost of operating the number and associated call routing services.

Ofcom has made clear its view that it is inappropriate for public bodies to use chargeable 08 numbers (without also publishing a geographic number) when dealing with those of limited means and other vulnerable groups.

We have also introduced a new UK-wide 03 numbers. Calls to 03 numbers will cost the same as calls to geographic numbers. These will be included as part of any inclusive call minutes or discount schemes for geographic calls.

The introduction of 03 numbers will enable organisations to offer consumers a single national point of contact without making additional charges for the service. This should give consumers confidence about calling 03. Ofcom expects public services and many others to view 03 numbers as more appropriate than chargeable 08 numbers. There will be no revenue sharing on calls to 03 numbers.

Since 03 allocation started in March 2007 Ofcom has allocated over 13 million 03 numbers to more than 80 communications providers who have requested them for their customers. We expect consumers to see the advantages of these new numbers, as they start to be used by more and more public service organisations, and the Central Office of Information is now recommending pubic sector organisations use 03 in preference to 08 numbers.

I hope that the above has gone some way in clarifying Ofcom’s position. Please be assured that a full record of your enquiry has been made.


I wrote again to ofcom:


Thank you indeed for your very considered reply. However I am very intrigued by your assertion that:

“..The financial terms between communications providers that offer 084 numbers and organisations that use them, are a matter for commercial negotiation and are not regulated by Ofcom.”

No wonder some organisations have begun to switch over to 0844 numbers to continue the rip-off. If you don’t supervise this 0845, or 0844 scam, who does? Office of Trading believes it ought to be you but you appear to be abandoning the British Public to the so called market forces.

I shall appreciate a reply to my concern.

I would welcome from the forum members!!

Let's be honest about this. Ofcom have made a complete b*lls up of the whole 0870, 084, etc saga.

They have allowed the scam on the public to continue by allowing companies to change from 0870 to 084 to continue fleecing the public.

This scam will not be stopped until Ofcom (or maybe even this spineless Government) make it compulsory for any use of a 08** telephone number to be accompanied by an 01, 02 or 03 number which can be used as an alternative for those people who do not wish to contribute to the coffers of the companies using these numbers.

Prehaps there should also be a recorded announcement at the beginning of all 08** calls, saying something like "This calls is going to a normal landline telephone, but due to the greed of the company you are calling, they are charging you much more, taking a percentage, and using the rest to pay the telephone company who has supplied them with a free telephone system with which to charge you these overinflated charges".

Why these premium rate calls have even been allowed in the first place is a disgrace which should be investigated.

[quote=poppasmurf;22756226]Let's be honest about this. Ofcom have made a complete b*lls up of the whole 0870, 084, etc saga.

I have written back to ofcom:

"Dear Ofcom

Dear Sirs

Thank you indeed for your very considered reply. However I am very intrigued by your assertion that:

“..The financial terms between communications providers that offer 084 numbers and organisations that use them, are a matter for commercial negotiation and are not regulated by Ofcom.”

No wonder some organisations have begun to switch over to 0844 numbers to continue the rip-off. If you don’t supervise this 0845, or 0844 scam, who does? Office of Trading believes it ought to be you but you appear to be abandoning the British Public to the so called market forces.

I shall appreciate a reply to my concern.

Regards

Balwant Munglani
04 April 2008"

I must admit I had expected lot more members joining me to protest against this scam. Nevertheless, Poppasmurf, your support is much appreciated. Could I have chosen some other Thread?
Last edited by muchaggrieved : 05-04-2008 at 13:20

Maybe the Politics or General Discussion Forum may have widened the net . Nevertheless, you have my support, and others such as Heinz. We're all against these 08 rip-offs. The only one who's not is Ofcom, who seem to aid and abet the cheaters and scammers.

I'm intrigued as to what you think the rip off is for 084 numbers? I have an 0845 "Lo-call" number for my business and it is charged to callers at local rates i.e. 4p per minute peak and 1.5p per minute off peak. Its often cheaper for callers who are at the other end of the country to call me on this rather than my 01xxx number (which would be charged as "long distance").

I get NOTHING from it, not like the revenue sharing 0870 numbers.

So who am I "ripping off"


LCDMAN...........Thinks his 0845 number is a service for his customers!

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. And like many businessmen in this country, you have fallen for the salesman's glib talk and gimmicks.

There is no such thing in this country as 'local' or 'long distance' and hasn't been for years. All calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers are charged no differently whether the calling and receiving numbers are one mile apart or one thousand miles apart. And, most people get calls to 01, 02 and 03 numbers free at some or all times of the day. I can make calls to any 01, 02 or 03 number for the flat rate of 5p per calls via 18185 during the day, Monday to Friday, or free at any other time.

Calls to your 0845 number are charged at 4p per minute, or maybe less during off peak times.

Why should I call your miserable company using a premium rate 0845 number when I could call another using an 01, 02, 03 number for free?

If I have the choice, I know who will get my business and it won't be you.

So do us all a favour, drop your 0845 number immediately, and you might actually see your customer base grow.

Clearly then, you are out of touch with (potential) customers such as me.

Publish a geographical number too and you'll start to win back customer trust.

A number of posts have been removed from this thread as they were disrespectful to other forum members.

The terms and conditions ask, very clearly, that you treat other users with respect.

Should this continue, those involved will have their right to post removed.

Thanks
DS Forum Support

It's annoying that companies are moving to 0844 numbers, however most of us predicted this would happen.

A good message to all businesses. If you want to gain back your customer base get rid of all non-gegraphical numbers. I refuse to give my custom to any organisation using non-geographical numbers.

Let us all do it and send a message on every platform which you can think of that British Public will not tolerate this scam

As soon as I get any 'offers' by post or by emails with non-geographical numbers I tell them in no uncertain terms that I would not give my custom to this scam and regard their practice of using non-geographical numbers as un-ethical. Believe some of them came back with their geographical numbers. Let us all do it! Any suggestions?

Agree 101%.

The ones who can really shoot themselves in the foot are the travel operators.

I'd picked a holiday to India and was about to phone and book it.

Then I noticed that it was an 0870 number.

So I went down to the travel agent and let them make the booking (yes, I know it's a bit sad).

So the travel company had to pay a commission to the travel agent that they could otherwise have kept for themselves.

It's always nice when greed doesn't pay.

I can offer one useful point.

Ofcom conducted a consultation before the initial decision to make the absurd offer of pre-announcements as an opt-out from what should have binding regulations to effectively kill off 0870. In its response to this consultation (in January 2005) the UKCTA, representing the telcos who compete with BT, pointed out that pre-announcements would not work because they would cause certain automated dialling equipment to fail to connect calls.

Nevertheless Ofcom went ahead with its proposals and these companies allegedly went ahead with plans to use pre-announcements. We are expected to believe that it was only in late 2007 that these companies discovered that pre-announcements prevented alarm systems from working and asked Ofcom to postpone the changes that had been scheduled to come into effect on 1 February 2008. Ofcom, which had apparently known about this problem all along, concurred.

In the last six months (or rather it should be three years) Ofcom has failed to find a solution. Some would suggest that it is obviously not trying very hard, if at all.

Solution is remove the opt-out, make all 0870 calls free from revenue sharing. Stuff the companies who use them.

Though everyone is then moving to 0844, you can't win.

Folks: Scam has the blessings of Ofcom and it continues with their blessings. I have received a reply from ofcom which is reproduced here. You make out what you wil!!

"Ofcom reference: 1-50234104

10 April 2008

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your further email to Ofcom regarding 084 non geographic numbers.

I can confirm that Ofcom is monitoring complaints and other indicators to see if consumer concerns arise on the 084 number range.

Appropriate measures to increase the level of consumer protection could be introduced if required, and we will conduct a further review of the 084 range in two years.

I hope that the information further clarifies Ofcom’s position.

Yours faithfully

:Len Martin
Telecoms Associate
Central Operations
occtelecoms@ofcom.org.uk

My reply to Ofcom is that Scam Continues for few more years with their blessings. I intend to send a copy of this to PMO- 10 Downing Street.

Folks: Shout a bit more and shout louder!!
Last edited by muchaggrieved : 11-04-2008 at 10:12

Okay. This is what I add to the confusion (courtesy of the BT Operators). I complained to a local PCT about the use of an 0844 number. I received a call today from them today to say that as their service operates throughout the region i.e. outside the 0191 area they use the 0844 number so that patients 40 odd miles away pay the same as "a local call".

So I checked on BT website and couldn't find the cost of a call to an 0844 number.

Rang 100 and told by first Op that I needed the full 0844 number which I didn't have to hand. Got it and rang 2nd 100 Op and told any call to 0844 number was 5p per minute. To clarify the cost of 0191 2xx xxxx to 0191-2xx xxxx I rang Op 3 and was told that:
0191 to 0844 daytime was 2p per minute and 0191-2xx xxxx to 0191-2xx xxxx was 5p per minute and advised to use 0844 number as the cheapest way to make the call! Confused or what?

View/comments/corrections please as I may need to formally respond to the PCT. Cheers.

Mr Kenneth, you've been given BS 'advice'.

The cost of calling 0844 numbers from a BT landline varies, depending on the 5th, 6th and 7th digits, between 0.5p/minute and 5p/minute (see HERE). It's no surprise (more of the money the patient has to pay to call and wait on the line can be syphoned off and shared between the company and the GPs) that the company which installs these systems for GPs' surgeries chooses an 0844 number in the 5p/minute group.

With the exception of the tiny minority of residential customers who still have to pay un-discounted call charges, the cost of a weekday daytime call to ANY UK 01 or 02 number (excl. the Channel Islands) via BT is now 4p/minute. That is what those on BT Together Option 1 (now called the Unlimited Weekend Plan) and BT Together Option 2 (now called the Unlimited Evening & Weekend Plan) pay.

Those on BT Together Option 3 (now called the Unlimited Anytime Plan), daytime and well as evening and weekend UK 01 and 02 calls are included in the £5.95/month subscription.

Of course, those who use the indirect access calls providers 1899, 18866 or 18185 can make a UK 01 or 02 call of any (unlimited) duration for a flat rate of 5p at any time.

So, those on an unlimited calls package like BT's Unlimited Anytime Plan or who use 1899, 18866 or 18185 are justifiably miffed at having to pay 5p/minute whilst listening to music and 'press this, press that' options when calling their GP when the call should have been included in their calls plan or cost a maximum of 5p via their indirect access calls provider.

However, those on BT's standard Unlimited Weekend Plan might be slightly less miffed because the per-minute cost is only 1p more than they'd pay for a normal 01 or 02 call.

Much of the disquiet is about that famous phrase 'free at the point of use' with the argument being that, because GPs take a cut of the 0844 calls costs (either in cash or in kind - a free telephone system), that principle has been breached.

Thanks for that Heinz. For your information here is the "explanation" I have just received:

14th April 2008



Dear Mr X

Further to our telephone conversation, I can confirm that our 0844 8115xxx number is charged at local rate, but I understand that you have a call plan with BT whereas you do not pay for your calls, with the exception of non-geographical numbers, therefore I advised you to ring 0191-213 xxxx for the Northumberland, Tyne & Wear Switchboard who can connect you to the Clinic Reception.

Due to the Trust being spread across the North East, the 0844 number was brought into service to enable easy access to the Trust Switchboard at a local charge rate for everyone, but we do understand the need for the other number for people with call plans.

I also confirmed with you there is a very small revenue from the 0844 number but this was not the reason for it being brought into service.

Yours sincerely




Mrs Y
Telecommunications Manager

So, she's a liar then (0844 811 numbers are charged at 5p/minute at all times so, even if the term 'local rate' had any meaning, it is 25% more than BT's 01/02 rate).

As the Telecommuniations Manager of a public body, perhaps she should have a read of the COI best practice guidance on the subject and, in particular, section 3.60:
BTW, 0844 calls from mobiles cost up to 40p/minute - certainly not 'local rate' (which has been a meaningless phrased since July 2004 anyway). For those with inclusive mobile minutes, 40p/minute instead of nothing must be very annoying.

Thanks again, Heinz. I have sent a response making those points and asking what proportion of the cost of calls the Trust receives and what goes to C&W. We'll see what happens!

PS I didn't call her a liar!
Last edited by Mr Kenneth : 15-04-2008 at 17:29

Mrs Y
Telecommunications Manager

Isn't this a classic case of putting a civil servant in charge of something they know nothing about?

How many more Health Authorities, Quango's, etc, will be leaving the ordering of these telephone systems to people who have absolutely no knowledge of what they are doing?

Isn't it about time the Government set up a Department to give instructions to all these bodies? Opps, sorry they have. It's called Ofcom!

The Prime Minister disagrees. In his response to the petition about GPs using 084 numbers he states that "local NHS organisations" have "the specific knowledge and expertise" necessary to deal with "the provision of telephone services for patients".

Both Ofcom and the Government have a lot to answer for. Ofcom is not however a department of government and has no powers to instruct any group of users of telephone services to do anything.

Apart from the Department of Health, there is also the Cabinet Office, which includes sections such as the "Contact Council". Although not strictly able to issue mandatory instructions, the advice this department issues to public bodies is taken seriously.

Ah, that'll be the same guy who, in 1997 when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, used his "specific knowledge and expertise" to sell half our gold reserves when the gold price was at its lowest for 30 years.

Ah, that'll be the same guy who, in 1997 when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, used his "specific knowledge and expertise" to sell half our gold reserves when the gold price was at its lowest for 30 years.

Typical of Gordon. Announce something twice and then take credit for it three times.