So hopefully this has a massive time shift, like a record breaking time shift... it needs too, otherwise its going to be low and we will have endless talk of the shows doom DOOM I TELL YA!!
Dr Who Ratings Thread (Merged)
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Originally Posted by Isambard Brunel:
“Right. So why parachute in an emergency temporal repeat at the Eleventh Hour on live TV, if overnights don't matter?”
“Right. So why parachute in an emergency temporal repeat at the Eleventh Hour on live TV, if overnights don't matter?”
Overnights cannot be taken on their own out of context (without reference to the final figures) to prove anything, and it is simply not logical to compare overnight values with those from 9 years ago because in that time, viewing habits have changed substantially.
Nevertheless, the overnights do matter and I don't think I said otherwise. They are a large proportion of the final viewing figures and within the same year a low overnight will result in a low final figure because the time-shifted audience remains roughly the same.
The BBC have resorted to a repeat because the viewing figures for episode 1 were very low compared to last year. A final figure hasn't been reached just yet, but last time I checked it was at around 6 million. While not disastrous, it is definitely quite low and I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. If we assume that Episode 2 time-shifts about the same amount as Episode 1 (just under 2 million) then we can assume that the final viewing figure will also be comparatively low.
The reason for this is, at least in part, due to the rugby. To deny that would be silly. Obviously, the BBC have decided that in order to make up for the loss in viewers due to the rugby, they'll repeat the two episodes.
Quote:
“The BBC could well have done the show more harm than good with this move, as - if the overnight ratings remain low throughout the next few weeks - it comes across as a desperate attempt to inflate the figures rather than repeating something out of the blue due to overwhelming demand.”
“The BBC could well have done the show more harm than good with this move, as - if the overnight ratings remain low throughout the next few weeks - it comes across as a desperate attempt to inflate the figures rather than repeating something out of the blue due to overwhelming demand.”
I fail to see how a repeat could do more harm than good.
It's not a desperate attempt to inflate the ratings- it's a response to the fact that Doctor Who lost some of its audience to the rugby. It's an attempt to win some of that audience back- namely the less technologically savvy people who aren't familiar with iPlayer and the casual viewers who'd usually tune in but who don't follow the show religiously.
Quote:
“They have the iPlayer, why clear the schedule with just hours' notice and repeat an episode from the night before?”
“They have the iPlayer, why clear the schedule with just hours' notice and repeat an episode from the night before?”
To win back some of the casual viewers who are likely to watch it if it's on but who aren't dedicated enough to catch up on iPlayer.
Originally Posted by DiscoP:
“But you are just comparing overnight figures to prove your point and ignoring the fact that the final consolidated figures with probably be much the same.
It therefore stands to reason that more people will have watched Satan's Pit live and less people on catch up when there were weren't as many ways to catch up and the technology was newer. Now more people catch up so less watch it live. It all seems perfectly logical to me.
I'm not really sure what other conclusions I am supposed to make?”
“But you are just comparing overnight figures to prove your point and ignoring the fact that the final consolidated figures with probably be much the same.
It therefore stands to reason that more people will have watched Satan's Pit live and less people on catch up when there were weren't as many ways to catch up and the technology was newer. Now more people catch up so less watch it live. It all seems perfectly logical to me.
I'm not really sure what other conclusions I am supposed to make?”
5.5m watched The Satan Pit live against an Association Football World Cup match on the other side and 3.7m watched The Witch's Familiar live against a Rugby Football World Cup match. Rugby Football is far less popular in this country than Association Football. What is there not to understand? If there had been more ways to catch up in 2006 then The Satan Pit's final consolidated figure would undoubtedly have been higher, not the same.
Originally Posted by Boz_Lowdownl:
“5.5m watched The Satan Pit live against an Association Football World Cup match on the other side and 3.7m watched The Witch's Familiar live against a Rugby Football World Cup match. Rugby Football is far less popular in this country than Association Football. What is there not to understand? If there had been more ways to catch up in 2006 then The Satan Pit's final consolidated figure would undoubtedly have been higher, not the same.”
“5.5m watched The Satan Pit live against an Association Football World Cup match on the other side and 3.7m watched The Witch's Familiar live against a Rugby Football World Cup match. Rugby Football is far less popular in this country than Association Football. What is there not to understand? If there had been more ways to catch up in 2006 then The Satan Pit's final consolidated figure would undoubtedly have been higher, not the same.”
If the two episodes had been shown in the same year then you would have a fair point but as it is there is a six year gap between them and the whole way in which people view television has changed during that time and continues to do so, so it is not a like for like comparison. Any TV show will have at least the same drop in live viewing figures during the same period of time. Context is key.
Originally Posted by DiscoP:
“If the two episodes had been shown in the same year then you would have a fair point but as it is there is a six year gap between them and the whole way in which people view television has changed during that time and continues to do so, so it is not a like for like comparison. Any TV show will have at least the same drop in live viewing figures during the same period of time. Context is key.”
“If the two episodes had been shown in the same year then you would have a fair point but as it is there is a six year gap between them and the whole way in which people view television has changed during that time and continues to do so, so it is not a like for like comparison. Any TV show will have at least the same drop in live viewing figures during the same period of time. Context is key.”
Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.
Originally Posted by Boz_Lowdownl:
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
But that's just a completely circular argument because I could equally say that if there weren't all the various ways to catch up on TV now then the live figure The Witches Familiar would probably have been higher.
Originally Posted by Boz_Lowdownl:
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
But that's the point. The technology was not available (or at least not as developed as it is now). Therefore, it has an effect on viewing behaviour. Because the technology was available, or not as developed, or awareness of catch up/on demand/PVR's (Sky +, Virgin TiVo, et al), five/six/seven years ago forced people to watch episodes of TV shows live, not at a time or a place of our own convenience.
Originally Posted by DiscoP:
“But that's just a completely circular argument because I could equally say that if there weren't all the various ways to catch up on TV now then the live figure The Witches Familiar would probably have been higher.”
“But that's just a completely circular argument because I could equally say that if there weren't all the various ways to catch up on TV now then the live figure The Witches Familiar would probably have been higher.”
But 1.8m higher?
Originally Posted by Boz_Lowdownl:
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
“Eh? TSP got 5.5m live and 6.1m consolidated. But if the ways to watch now were available nine, not six, years ago, then surely its consolidated would have been much higher. And, as for context, as I said, TSP did far better against the more popular Soccer than TWF did against the less popular Rugby.”
Originally Posted by Boz_Lowdownl:
“But 1.8m higher?”
“But 1.8m higher?”
At the end of the day, it's the final viewing figures which matter. The Witch's Familiar is likely to time-shift around 2 million people (maybe more) which would bring it to 5.7m and perhaps slightly higher.
Still not a great figure, mind, but not disastrous and not that much lower than The Satan Pit's final viewing figure.
Originally Posted by TheSilentFez:
“At the end of the day, it's the final viewing figures which matter.”
“At the end of the day, it's the final viewing figures which matter.”
I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.
Originally Posted by ntscuser:
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
Well Series 9 has been very well received by critics so far, but if awards are your criteria for critical acclaim, then we'll have to wait and see.
Originally Posted by ntscuser:
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
And what about this (sub) forum, which has remained a sub even after Who is back on air? Only 18 pages on the latest episode thread over 24 hours after broadcast??? Didn't it used to be in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 100s even? OK, I know a lot of people have been put off by the bullying Moffat fan boys, who flame anyone who dares to even slightly criticise an episode, but even so.
The BBC itself hasn't helped..
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.
Originally Posted by oathy:
“The BBC itself hasn't helped..
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.”
“The BBC itself hasn't helped..
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.”
The tabloid-comment trailer was from BBC America, and not the first they've done for Doctor Who like that... it's quite common for US TV trailers, and usually a means to make the whole thing feel more 'cinematic'. The UK trailers didn't include those, and I don't believe they're allowed to either, as it goes against the BBC policies of promotion.
There were cries from large numbers of fans (I presume Classic viewers predominantly) who wanted a shift to the autumn all the way up to Series 6 - which aired its back half later in the year. Whether that had any part to play I have no idea, but I suspect that the Beeb also expected tougher competiton for the show in Autumn, which isn't directly a bad thing. If the show is competitive and can hold a solid viewer share against the huge live-broadcast behemoths like The X Factor then it isn't doing too badly for itself.
i agree that shoehorning in a quick unscheduled repeat showing does look a bit desperate, as they obviously saw that as a cheap way of bumping up the show's live viewing figures for the week.
On the other hand of course, it could be seen as an indication of just how much they want the show to be seen as a success, not getting the audience it deserved on the first showing!
I was a big advocate of the series moving to the Autumn, as I always felt that was its natural home, but if it's not performing as it should there, maybe a move to early in the year would be worth trying. I never liked it starting at Easter time, that's definitely too late.
On the other hand of course, it could be seen as an indication of just how much they want the show to be seen as a success, not getting the audience it deserved on the first showing!
I was a big advocate of the series moving to the Autumn, as I always felt that was its natural home, but if it's not performing as it should there, maybe a move to early in the year would be worth trying. I never liked it starting at Easter time, that's definitely too late.
Originally Posted by ntscuser:
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
“I'd be more concerned about critical acclaim.
There was a period when DW dominated the Hugo Awards. This year only one episode was nominated ("Listen") and even that was beaten by an episode of Orphan Black.”
Than you mean awards, not critical acclaim. ......8 and now 9 are getting great critics reviews.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“The tabloid-comment trailer was from BBC America, and not the first they've done for Doctor Who like that... it's quite common for US TV trailers, and usually a means to make the whole thing feel more 'cinematic'. The UK trailers didn't include those, and I don't believe they're allowed to either, as it goes against the BBC policies of promotion.
There were cries from large numbers of fans (I presume Classic viewers predominantly) who wanted a shift to the autumn all the way up to Series 6 - which aired its back half later in the year. Whether that had any part to play I have no idea, but I suspect that the Beeb also expected tougher competiton for the show in Autumn, which isn't directly a bad thing. If the show is competitive and can hold a solid viewer share against the huge live-broadcast behemoths like The X Factor then it isn't doing too badly for itself.”
“The tabloid-comment trailer was from BBC America, and not the first they've done for Doctor Who like that... it's quite common for US TV trailers, and usually a means to make the whole thing feel more 'cinematic'. The UK trailers didn't include those, and I don't believe they're allowed to either, as it goes against the BBC policies of promotion.
There were cries from large numbers of fans (I presume Classic viewers predominantly) who wanted a shift to the autumn all the way up to Series 6 - which aired its back half later in the year. Whether that had any part to play I have no idea, but I suspect that the Beeb also expected tougher competiton for the show in Autumn, which isn't directly a bad thing. If the show is competitive and can hold a solid viewer share against the huge live-broadcast behemoths like The X Factor then it isn't doing too badly for itself.”
Thank you that explains a heck of a lot
Was reading in the other thread about no full series in 2016. It does seem the prospect of it moving back to spring 17 is at least an option. the 20:30 start time next week is just crazy
Originally Posted by oathy:
“The BBC itself hasn't helped..
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.”
“The BBC itself hasn't helped..
If anything screams panic its a trailer with tabloid comments on how good an episode is.
I cant ever remember the BBC doing that before?. And the Comments about PC himself its almost admitting they know there's problems and asking people to take another look.
with SCD it makes you wonder why they insisted on moving DW to the Autumn. the spring schedule isn't exactly alive with them and worked a lot better, Once the series ended you had that lovely wait till the Christmas special, the spacing just seemed much better And made you appreciate it more.”
Having Doctor Who air late September on a Saturday night clearly is not working that well.
If I were the BBC I would consider moving Doctor Who to a Sunday night slot and air it earlier in the year with a slightly earlier time slot than recent episodes.
Originally Posted by Chris_TV:
“I would consider moving Doctor Who to a Sunday night slot”
“I would consider moving Doctor Who to a Sunday night slot”
Why do so many people think this would be a good idea?!
Aside from the fact that Doctor Who is, perhaps only in sentiment, a Saturday night programme what does a Sunday broadcast achieve? Kids trying to get ready for school the next day (I know as someone who was in school until a few years ago I'd have hated to watch Doctor Who knowing school was only a few hours away!) is one problem. But you're consigning it to a 'safe zone'. Here's Doctor Who - a show that has held steady for a decade against the biggest shows in the UK despite being a more niche genre, and we're going to put it in the corner where nobody can harm it. We think it's a delicate little snowflake that needs preserving because it isn't a bold or ambitious enough show to stand on its own proverial legs.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“Why do so many people think this would be a good idea?!
Aside from the fact that Doctor Who is, perhaps only in sentiment, a Saturday night programme what does a Sunday broadcast achieve? Kids trying to get ready for school the next day (I know as someone who was in school until a few years ago I'd have hated to watch Doctor Who knowing school was only a few hours away!) is one problem. But you're consigning it to a 'safe zone'. Here's Doctor Who - a show that has held steady for a decade against the biggest shows in the UK despite being a more niche genre, and we're going to put it in the corner where nobody can harm it. We think it's a delicate little snowflake that needs preserving because it isn't a bold or ambitious enough show to stand on its own proverial legs.”
“Why do so many people think this would be a good idea?!
Aside from the fact that Doctor Who is, perhaps only in sentiment, a Saturday night programme what does a Sunday broadcast achieve? Kids trying to get ready for school the next day (I know as someone who was in school until a few years ago I'd have hated to watch Doctor Who knowing school was only a few hours away!) is one problem. But you're consigning it to a 'safe zone'. Here's Doctor Who - a show that has held steady for a decade against the biggest shows in the UK despite being a more niche genre, and we're going to put it in the corner where nobody can harm it. We think it's a delicate little snowflake that needs preserving because it isn't a bold or ambitious enough show to stand on its own proverial legs.”
The truth is that a large portion of the reason that the overnights are so low is that the BBC is happy to throw Who into situations where it's going to struggle because they don't need to worry about the overnights. It's going to timeshift well, it's going to explode on iPlayer, millions of people are going to watch it, it's going to make a ton of money worldwide and they're not going to cancel it.
The BBC need a show to stand up and take a hit from the X-Factor and from the rugby and a hit that won't knock it out. Who is perfect for that, it's big enough to take the punches and stay standing. They realised that Atlantis wasn't that show when it got butchered in the ratings.
Originally Posted by Whovian1109:
“The truth is that a large portion of the reason that the overnights are so low is that the BBC is happy to throw Who into situations where it's going to struggle because they don't need to worry about the overnights. It's going to timeshift well, it's going to explode on iPlayer, millions of people are going to watch it, it's going to make a ton of money worldwide and they're not going to cancel it.
The BBC need a show to stand up and take a hit from the X-Factor and from the rugby and a hit that won't knock it out. Who is perfect for that, it's big enough to take the punches and stay standing. They realised that Atlantis wasn't that show when it got butchered in the ratings.”
“The truth is that a large portion of the reason that the overnights are so low is that the BBC is happy to throw Who into situations where it's going to struggle because they don't need to worry about the overnights. It's going to timeshift well, it's going to explode on iPlayer, millions of people are going to watch it, it's going to make a ton of money worldwide and they're not going to cancel it.
The BBC need a show to stand up and take a hit from the X-Factor and from the rugby and a hit that won't knock it out. Who is perfect for that, it's big enough to take the punches and stay standing. They realised that Atlantis wasn't that show when it got butchered in the ratings.”
This was the point I was making, but far better worded and free of the snowflake analogy
People need to think, if Who moved to a Sunday what goes in its place? Well as a fan they really don't think, and they seem to forget that the BBC needs to fill its schedules with as successful output as they can. A repeat of Pointless up against the rugby match... any argument of defending the licence fee or the corporation in general would be out of the window. Doctor Who is a tough cookie (seriously I need to stop with these analogies!!!) and weathers the Saturday evenings well. So it doesn't perform like it used to on the overnights... overall it's still a major success, and that 'live' audience hasn't gone, it's just shifted elsewhere
An interesting comparison.
The Witch's Familiar starting after 7pm opposite an England rugby match in September had 3.71m.
In 2010, The Lodger faced an England World Cup match on one of the hottest days of the year and started before 7pm. Here are the overnight ratings for that clash.
13.2 * (56.0%) …. World Cup Live: England v USA (18:15) ITV 1 (12.0 + 1.2 HD)
4.6 * (22.3%) …. Doctor Who (18:45) BBC One (4.3 + 0.3 HD)
The Witch's Familiar starting after 7pm opposite an England rugby match in September had 3.71m.
In 2010, The Lodger faced an England World Cup match on one of the hottest days of the year and started before 7pm. Here are the overnight ratings for that clash.
13.2 * (56.0%) …. World Cup Live: England v USA (18:15) ITV 1 (12.0 + 1.2 HD)
4.6 * (22.3%) …. Doctor Who (18:45) BBC One (4.3 + 0.3 HD)
Originally Posted by cylon6:
“An interesting comparison...”
“An interesting comparison...”
as a random aside, The Lodger was the first episode of the show I missed the live broadcast of since Father's Day, as I was stuck on a train at Battersea!
So...
2010
DW: Series 5, Episode 11 - 4.6 million (22.3%)
Football - 13.2 million (56%)
2015
DW: Series 9, Episode 2 - 3.7 million (16.6%)
Rugby - 8.41 million (38.3%)
The first thing to note is that between the two programmes, in 2010 there were nearly 18 million viewers. In 2015, there were just 12 million viewers. This is despite the 2010 example occurring in mid-June when it was typically still light out, and the 2015 example occurring at the end of September when it was getting quite dark out.
What does this tell us? That there's at least a third less people typically watching live broadcasts in 2015 than in 2010. It also tells us that in 2010, Doctor Who only got 39.8% of the number of viewers than the sporting rival broadcast did. In 2015, that figure has actually risen in Doctor Who's favour which now gets 43.3% of the number of viewers that the big sporting event did. Not a huge increase but an increase all the same and perhaps an indication above all else that Doctor Who, as said time and time again, performs reliably and uniformly for the BBC. That when an overnight figure goes down it makes up for it elsewhere, and that the averages are always around the same.
Doctor Who, ironically for a show so rooted in change, is Old Faithful.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“The tabloid-comment trailer was from BBC America, and not the first they've done for Doctor Who like that... it's quite common for US TV trailers, and usually a means to make the whole thing feel more 'cinematic'. The UK trailers didn't include those, and I don't believe they're allowed to either, as it goes against the BBC policies of promotion.
”
“The tabloid-comment trailer was from BBC America, and not the first they've done for Doctor Who like that... it's quite common for US TV trailers, and usually a means to make the whole thing feel more 'cinematic'. The UK trailers didn't include those, and I don't believe they're allowed to either, as it goes against the BBC policies of promotion.
”
How is this a BBC America Trailer when it has -
Quotes from British Newspapers
British Voiceover
Gives the time the show appears on BBC1
The BBC1 Logo
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“as a random aside, The Lodger was the first episode of the show I missed the live broadcast of since Father's Day, as I was stuck on a train at Battersea!
So...
2010
DW: Series 5, Episode 11 - 4.6 million (22.3%)
Football - 13.2 million (56%)
2015
DW: Series 9, Episode 2 - 3.7 million (16.6%)
Rugby - 8.41 million (38.3%)
.”
“as a random aside, The Lodger was the first episode of the show I missed the live broadcast of since Father's Day, as I was stuck on a train at Battersea!
So...
2010
DW: Series 5, Episode 11 - 4.6 million (22.3%)
Football - 13.2 million (56%)
2015
DW: Series 9, Episode 2 - 3.7 million (16.6%)
Rugby - 8.41 million (38.3%)
.”
deja vu!!
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