It's a hideous travesty. I literally mute the TV during the opening titles as I can't stand hearing it.

Of course there is no guarantee whatsoever that the new 'Showrunner' that comes in for series 11, new Doctor or not, will orchestrate a big upswing in the ratings and be hailed by fandom as the best. thing. evah. Upswing in ratings? Possibly. Fandom united in praise? Not an Ice Cream's chance in hell.

Still vaguely think SM stayed for the next series 'cos there was no-one in place, but am certain it'll be his last. True, I was also certain that this year was his last and that Missy wasn't The Master, so there we go...

I'm not quite that extreme, but it is a peculiarly bad arrangement. I can't fathom why Moffat signed off on it.

I agree. Series 10 hasn't even been written yet but already it sounds like the same old, same old. It'll be Peter Capaldi as the Doctor with Moffat as showrunner. Ok there will be a new companion but I can't see that being enough to lure back a million viewers. It needs a big shake-up and that unfortunately won't happen until there is a new Doctor and showrunner.

Short answer? Honestly, who knows?

Slightly longer answer... I'm far from convinced that a rise in the ratings next series is impossible, given the right circumstances. I don't think Capaldi has been the problem for most people, at least not Capaldi alone. Give people a new start with a fresh new companion on the show, and put it back in a slot on the schedule that is more favourable to casual viewing, and I think you could very easily see a nice ratings boost for series 10. As big a boost as a new Doctor might see? Maybe not, but personally I'm not willing to sacrifice Twelve quite yet. At least not without experimenting with changing other aspects of the show first.

The thing is, there's no evidence that fewer people are watching because of Peter Capaldi's doctor. Of course, that could be the case; or it could be because people dislike the character of Clara; or it could be people don't like the writing or general characterisation; or it could be the later time-slot; or it could be the time of year; in summary, we don't know!

In your case, it's very clear - you've never been a fan of Capaldi's doctor. Indeed, even before he'd even filmed an episode, I recall you being uninspired by his casting. And all the way through, you've said how much you dislike the 12th doctor.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinions. I haven't disliked any of the previous doctors, but I happen to think that Matt Smith was a weak actor and struggled to convey the gravitas and authority that the doctor possesses. For me, Capaldi is superior to Smith in every way. But each to their own.

However I'd be reluctant to say that the choice of actor has effected the viewing figures. Most of the criticism seems to be directed at Moffat and his writing.

Wow! We've written off series 10 already as well now have we? I can see what you're suggesting but to say that is very doom-laden.

Did you think S4 was same old same old what with RTD and Tennant in place by the way?

It would be astonishing for any TV show if the titular lead character of the show, on screen for more minutes than any other character, didn't have an effect on viewing figures. It beggars belief that anyone would discount it as part of the reason.

A shame because I like him, but I'm not going to pretend that it's had zero impact. Not just the actor himself, but also the audience reaction to how he was played last year. I don't know, and don't know the extent of the impact, but I really find it hard to believe there has been no bad reaction.


It is here, but you'd have found lots of criticism here of RTD when the show was riding high. Here isn't the general audience. We don't know what the million people who stopped watching think.

We don't know for sure what's happened, but the show hasn't lost viewers over the course of the series. It just seems that around a million fewer people ever thought to tune in from the start. We don't know whether that's a specific million people who sat through series 8 then decided not to bother at all this year (and not replaced by new viewers), or whether it's just a general drop in interest due to various factors including the specific scheduling of series 9 compared to series 8, or the marketing or whatever.

You're right - but I never said it was. Generally I find DS to be far more negative an experience than visiting other DW forums, but also more negative than the general discussions on other sites. And I've rarely come across substantive or sustained criticisms of Peter Capaldi.

If he was such a turn-off, I struggle to see why people consistently watched throughout the 12 episodes of series 8 and then the Christmas Special.

I tend to agree, but I think - in today's TV world - that Peter might be better appreciated in restrospect rather than in the here-and-now.

Not by me, or many of us, but if the casual audience saw 12 regenerated into Richard Madden as 13, there would be an understandable cross-pollination of fandoms.

Finally we have the iPlayer performance pack for September and October.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/mediacent...ance-oct15.pdf

Top 20 for September.
Doctor Foster Episode 1 Episode 1 1,973,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 5 1,930,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 6 1,869,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 7 1,841,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 8 1,748,000
Doctor Foster Episode 2 1,706,000
Doctor Who Series 9 Episode 1 1,549,000
Doctor Foster Episode 3 1,373,000
EastEnders 01/09/15 1,237,000
EastEnders 11/09/15 1,226,000
EastEnders 18/09/15 1,187,000
EastEnders 15/09/15 1,181,000
EastEnders 17/09/15 1,167,000
EastEnders 04/09/15 1,111,000
Lady Chatterley's Lover 06/09/15 1,091,000
EastEnders 08/09/15 1,079,000
EastEnders 03/09/15 1,078,000
EastEnders 10/09/15 1,078,000
Strictly Come Dancing Series 13 Episode 1 1,068,000
Cradle to Grave Episode 1 1,052,000

Top 20 for October.
The Apprentice Series 11 Episode 2 1,860,000
Doctor Foster Episode 5 1,843,000
Doctor Foster Episode 4 1,825,000
The Apprentice Series 11 Episode 1 1,782,000
The Apprentice Series 11 Episode 3 1,663,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 11 1,619,000
Doctor Who Series 9 Episode 3 1,407,000
The Great British Bake Off Series 6 Episode 9 1,370,000
Strictly Come Dancing Series 13 Episode 6 1,245,000
Doctor Who Series 9 Episode 4 1,237,000
The Apprentice Series 11 Episode 4 1,227,000
From Darkness Episode 1 1,210,000
Doctor Who Series 9 Episode 5 1,147,000
Rooney: The Man Behind the Goals 05/10/15 1,141,000
The Apprentice Series 11 Meet the Candidates 1,121,000
Have I Got News for You Series 50 Episode 1 1,074,000
EastEnders 02/10/15 1,056,000
EastEnders 09/10/15 1,034,000
EastEnders 06/10/15 1,024,000
Doctor Foster Episode 3 1,023,000

Moff and the BBC made a deliberate decision to make the Doctor less friendly, less likeable. They employed an older actor, and made sure he looked old, rather than a younger "hunk" or smoothie. Then they made S9 a series of Two Parters, with lots of references to the 10 years of New Who and 52 years of the overall show, rather than self contained "monsters of the week" stories.

When they took those decisions, they knew that it wasn't the way to maximise ratings, so I doubt the BBC is surprised that Peter's Doctor seems to have lost some of the 'casual viewers' especially in a competitive time slot when many people will be in the pub!

Precisely! Moff and everyone behind the last season or two of the show aren't idiots, and knew their audience was a mixed bag. They were no doubt well aware of the risks they were taking in making the choices they made, and making the show so much more 'for the fans', not to mention creating such a polarizing style of Doctor. As such, I can't help think that they are less concerned with keeping the casual fans in the UK, and more concerned with having a healthily rated cult favourite here, that will hook the Whovian level fan base the world over. The casual fans don't buy the DVDs, or the toys and other related merchandise. That's where the money is, after all, and where the show will see the most success for the BBC.

So yeah, whilst I'm sure that the higher ups at the Beeb would like to find a way to boost the UK ratings again (because why wouldn't they?) I tend to believe that the show is in all other ways exactly where they want it to be.

AI of 80 for Heaven Sent... (!)

Quite. The only major change has been the main character. It's hardly beyond the realms of belief to say that people gave him a try in series 8 and decided not to return for series 9 because it wasn't for them.

My personal opinion is Capaldi is objectively good but his style of Doctor is more niche and lacks wide appeal - people don't care enough about the character to bother.


Habit. TV watching is habit forming. It's often the case where people will watch a series out of habit but it returns to much lower figures the next time because they can't be bothered to get back into that habit again.


Tbh I don't think the BBC have THAT much creative input into the show any more. Moffat has made himself big enough that he can do what he likes within reason. (Most executives in media are clueless when it comes to the creative side anyway!) Even so, they won't have been clambering for a less popular show to be made in the current climate.

The fact is that DW inherits an absolutely enormous lead in but does only reasonably with it. The timeslot argument is a bit of misdirection really. The total TV audience doesn't drop massively post Strictly, just a lot of people actively turn over to something else. Series 8 of DW itself didn't do noticeably worse once it moved to post 8pm. I'm sure the BBC aren't 100% happy with the show's current performance in such a high profile time slot and will happily take the opportunity to shift it to q1 2017 where they'll hope it does better. Of course that is assuming the time and competition are the issue.

Well, if you just look at Drama, Who's doing okay there iplayer wise. And I'm not surprised they're giving Doctor Sexy, sorry, Foster another go with those figures.

6 million of the 7 million from the previous series still care enough about the character to bother, as do countless fans around the world. Capaldi has no doubt been a factor in the viewer drop off, but to say 'people' don't care about his Doctor is vastly overstating it. Some people perhaps don't, but far from the majority.


As I suggested above, less popular to the general audience might be acceptable if it means being more popular to the more dedicated, loyal audience who will actually invest money in the show. In the general big business world it might sound like a crazy idea, but I work in the comic book industry and sometimes that's just the way it goes. If Doctor Who as a show is seen as being more useful as a cash generating merchandise machine geared to a smaller, more rabid audience, rather than a ratings machine aimed at the general public, that's the way it will be taken. Both would be nice though, obviously.


This idea that Doctor Who is supposed to hold on to the majority of the audience of a celebrity dancing show just seems weird to me. I'm sure that there is some overlap but frankly I don't know anyone other than my own gran who watches Strictly, yet between work colleagues and customers, as well as my friends and family, I know A LOT of Who fans. Strictly is ideal viewing for the older generation who stay at home on a Saturday and want a little light entertainment, as mind-bendingly dull as it might be, but it doesn't surprise me one little bit that a massive majority of those people wouldn't have the time of day for Doctor Who. I just don't see why anyone would expect DW to be able to keep the attention of the general Strictly fan. A supreme case of television apples and oranges.

Looks like Ep 2 didn't get to the top 20 in either month for that Iplayer list, figures must have been split down the middle.

The Prologue did pretty well.

Let's admit it - the Doctor is too old! Moffat is going mad!

The kids of TODAY are used to the likes of Tennant and Smith and their adventures with monsters and Daleks! NOT an older guy with dark, mysterious, complicated stories!
We grew up with an older Doctor - who had adventures in a police box with various companions, fair enough! But after a whole generation....kids today see Doctor Who as a younger guy, and there's no escaping that!
Moffat has also tried to transcend into the American way of storytelling and making everything into an arc and blending all stories into one, Wrong! Bad move.
Doctor Who was always a serial - but in segmented 4-6 part stories. It then moved on to the next story. Simple. RTD did this quite well in his era - nice seperate stories all the way (give or take the odd two-parter).
To cut a long story short - if the Moff doesn't change his ways - this wonderful series is going to go down the drain - without a doubt!!!

Which is fine but that's still the first time the show has had a significant drop since it returned and they will be concerned that this is the start of a pattern.


The BBC still has to be rather careful that they can justify the show's enormous cost though. The main reason the Musketeers got 2nd and 3rd series despite its ratings wasn't just that it sold well but it circumstances made it very cheap to make.


And everyone I know who watches Strictly are in their 20s and 30s. And, as I've said, Merlin and DW up until last year used to inherit very well from SCD so there must be some cross over!

Yes, we've lost about a million viewers, somehow.

BUT IF I HAVE TO HEAR ONE MORE THING ABOUT THE AI'S WHEN THE SCORING SYSTEM HAS CHANGED I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL THROW SOMEONE THROUGH A WINDOW AUWHDAIFHAJ@P~!

Please, stop going on, they've changed so BARB are not included, meaning a slight drop, this happened after Name of the Doctor.

Did somehow actually just sl*g off series 10?.... my god... no wonder we're always fighting in our fandom.

Kind of hoping Heaven Sent would get higher, but I get it, it was more for fans and the AI figures aren't. It is what it is, AI's are lower now due to the BARB removal anyway.

if we went back to the style of series 8 i wouldn't mind, but if we get more Fanwank crap like this current series the viewers will continue to dwindle

He's right. The facility to search for your own posts or posts by other forum members is all over the place. I tried finding a post I'd made a few days ago and the search only showed me a very small subset of all my posts. Sometimes I've tried to look up the posts made by other users and it said there weren't any. None at all. Then try again another time and you do see some, but you don't know whether it's all of them.

For example, I've just used "Find more posts by" on myself and it showed me nothing later than 21st November. A handful of those. Then the next on the list were from way back in 2010 and showed me an apparently random sample.

The search for users posts facility is broken.

So does this mean that all AIs across all types of show dropped slightly around mid 2013?

Which means we should be looking back to 2014 to see whether or not series 9 is faring better, in absolute terms, than series 8. We can't go further back than that for absolute comparisons?