But again we're back to 'drop in ratings' equals 'not as popular' or...'not as good'? If you really enjoyed Series 9 and there'd been this drop in ratings, would you be calling for radical changes, Mullet? I don't see anybody denying the drop, but personally think a schedule change (January?) and earlier transmission could do the trick. Do I know that? Nope. Time will tell. I honestly don't think the production team or the BBC are oblivious to these things. You're mentioning Moffat's and the 'teams' ego. That's your take on it. He comes across as pretty sussed to me. A new show runner (which we'll have soon enough) and a new Doctor will reverse the trend for sure? Again, don't know! Maybe. Will it improve the show artistically? Maybe. Again, that would come down to how much you're liking/disliking the current era. I don't think the people working on Who are that complacent, you know?

I do wish you would stop presenting your opinions as facts Mulett. Since when has the production allowed 'their egos to be massaged by the positive reviews?" and how do you know that they're not looking at the issue of falling ratings?

In fact all evidence seems to point to the opposite. It's been acknowledged that ratings have fallen and they will no doubt be looking into this. They've said that the timing and promotion of the show weren't brilliant this year so will be looking to change those for series 10 and I dare say they will be making a number of other changes based on their audience feedback (as they have for every series) which we're not privy to.

Just to clarify so there is no misunderstsnding:

A 1.5m drop in ratings = Not as popular.

"Not as good" is more subjective but I worry when a marmite episode like Heaven Sent is being held up as an example of the show at it's best when it's AI rating shows it wasn't enjoyed as much as 10 other episodes last season. It's like saying we here on DS know better than the viewing audience more generally.

I clearly say that's a worry of mine DiscoP. Not a fact. Please check your facts before making an accusation against another forum member.

No. You said:


You didn't say:


The second sentence reads entirely differently and if you'd actually written that then I wouldn't have said you were presenting opinions as facts.

Oh dear lord. Seriously? I literally just laughed out loud.

Again, I'm not getting this off of Digital Spy either, that is in fact where I'm likely to see the most negativity (and Heaven Sent was no exception). I'm talking about the reactions on multiple forums and social sites across the internet, all which suggest Heaven Sent was a very acclaimed episode that could possibly be remembered as a classic.

This is all about how you think things need to be. You think there should have been more negative reviews because apparently reviewers think "we could do with a few just to balance it out" You think the AI figures are hand on heart solid facts of an episode's quality because it suits yourself. You think Moffat and co. should write the show in a way you particularly like it. You think anybody who enjoyed Series 9 more than you did is an easily pleased Moffat fanatic.

I think we can expect a very fresh start for Series 11 when it comes, as Series 10 is likely to be Moffat's final year. He didn't initially intend to stay on another series, but by the sounds of it there was little choose. But this change you're so eager for is coming, sooner than it would take for the show to be plunged into a state as bad as it was in the late 80's.

I'm glad that I amused you but I was being entirely serious.

The first statement puts it out there, suggesting it's a worry that everyone should be concerned about because it's something that is actually definitely happening, that Moffat and his chums are basking in the positive reviews and ignoring falling ratings.

The second makes it personal to you, that it's something that you personally are concerned about and therefore keeps it very much firmly in your head and not in the real world.

At least that's my take on it anyway.

DiscoP, I'm grateful you have conceded the issue is your interpretation of my post rather than what was actually written.

Does anyone want to make a guess at the ratings for Christmas Day, both the overnights and the final?

Things to consider:

Time: Its the earliest ever time slot for Doctor Who's Christmas Day episode, at 5.15pm

Competition: Its competition appears weak, with ITV showing Paul O'Grady at Battersea Dogs and Cats Home (yes, that's really a thing) and Channel 4 showing Scrooged from 1988

Cast: Viewer favourite River Song returns - two years ago, a Radio Times poll of more than 20,000 readers had River as the 4th most popular companion of all time behind Rose, Sarah Jane and Donna and ahead of Amy and Clara.

No Clara: Its the first post-Clara episode, and the first Christmas episode without Clara since 2012.

Last year: Christmas Day ratings were down across the board last year, with a couple of million shaved off the overnight viewing figures of all the shows broadcast on Christmas Day compared with their overnights the year before. A shift in Christmas Day viewing habits or a one-off?

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that it will be in line with this season's figures. i.e. a bit lower than last year.

Many of those factors will give it a lift, but I think its overnight ratings will suffer because of season 9's performance. If it's well-liked by those who do watch it, word of mouth will enable the figures to recover somewhat by the time the 28 day figures are in.

I think some of season 9's drop is due to the general decline in conventional TV viewing, but this is far too big a drop to be the full explanation. The majority of the decline this time is due to season 8's dislikable, less fun Doctor and heavier tone overall. For me, the best episodes from series 8 were when the Doctor was enjoying himself and taking charge (e.g. Mummy on the Orient Express). I think many mainstream viewers were put off by season 8 and didn't bother coming back when season 9 began.

I also think season 9 suffered due to clashes with major sporting events at the start, which would have dampened any word-of-mouth that might otherwise have got going.

The pre-season publicity for season 9 was also poor. Whoever came up with the "Same old, same old" tag line needs to find a job in another industry.

The Davros, season opening two parter was not a good choice for the start of the series. Too much fan-service for the mainstream audience for a series opener. It's a good story, i.e. I liked it , but it would have served viewing figures better if it had been mid-series.

The later time-slot didn't help.

Being almost all two-part stories didn't help (having a few two parters is good, but they should be special events, reserved for stories that warrant two parts).

The gloomy tone throughout season 9 didn't help.

Less accessible stories, less accessible Doctor, overshadowed by Clara's departure (much as I like Clara, I now think it was a mistake for her to continue this series). All these also didn't help the viewing figures.

No matter how subjectively "good" The Husbands of River Song turns out to be, its viewing figures will suffer because people who were "burned" by season 9 will think twice about tuning in for it. Traditionally, the viewing figures of episodes that follow a particularly disliked episode, will suffer, regardless of how good it is.

Having said all of that, it's not a major concern for me at this point. All it needs is a sustained run of really entertaining, fun episodes. And The Husbands of River Song, because it's the Christmas special and likely to be less "heavy" and gloomy, could be the start of that.

Note that none of my comments refer to the quality of the writing, as such. It's about not meeting the expectations of a Saturday night, tea-time family audience

Hard to say. For every casual watcher who thinks River instead of Clara, hooray, there will be others who think the opposite. That poll from 2 years ago I assume misses out S8 and S9

At 5.15 there is less TV competition, but far more "Christmas" competition, late lunches, family get togethers, afternoon snoozes etc. By the sounds of things, this episode is far less arcy than recent Christmas Doctor Who episodes, so easier for "casuals" to understand, but less "urgent to watch" as well.

I think that could be a major factor this year!

Exactly. Silly that it's so early. Most wouldn't be ready settling down in front of the tv at that time. It's almost as though they've decided to shove it on before all of the apparent 'good' stuff, as though it's just an inconsequential show to be got out of the way.

I wouldn't take so much offence at the choice of time slot or assume so much about the motivations. No-one at the BBC is seeking to downplay the importance of Doctor Who to the BBC. What if they've noted the drop in S9's viewing figures and thought this was a good time against, hopefully, weaker opposition, to help the figures for the Christmas special? It's bound to get more of the younger children in the audience at that sort of time.

Actual broadcast time doesn't matter so much these days, other than how it affects word-of-mouth after the broadcast, what with DVRs and iPlayer. I won't be watching live again this Christmas because I'll be with family. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw anything live on Christmas day!

I agree that the drop-off was probably down to the change in tone in series 8 but I think the viewing figures from season 9 were reasonably consistent so I suspect that those who still watched season 9 were the ones who weren't put off by the tone. If there is a problem with the figures for the Christmas Special it will be because of season 8 rather than anything in season 9, I think.

With luck, those put off by the tone of season 8 will still want to watch the Christmas episode as the fact that it is a Christmas episode will mean that it is unlikely to be the dark tone that they dislike. With any luck, the more upbeat tone may be a way of getting the people who ditched the programme in season 9 back in the fold again.

Here's the BBC1 schedule for Christmas Day 2014 with the overnight figures next to each:

5pm Strictly Come Dancing Christmas Special - 6.98 million
6.15pm Doctor Who - 6.34 million
7.15pm Miranda - 6.67 million
7.50pm Call the Midwife - 6.83 million
9pm EastEnders - 7.55 million
10pm Mrs Brown’s Boys - 7.61 million viewers

So even though Strictly Come Dancing was on at 5pm, it still got 6.98 million viewers on the day.

Below is the 2015 line-up. Its the same as 2014 but without Miranda and with SCD and Doctor Who in reverse order.

5.15pm Doctor Who
6.15pm Strictly Come Dancing Christmas Special
7.30pm Call the Midwife
8.45pm EastEnders
9.45pm Mrs Brown's Boys

The more I am looking at this, the more I am thinking that GDK has a point and perhaps the BBC is trying to do the show a favour by putting it in a slot which has shown it can deliver 7m viewers on the day, with very little competition on ITV.

You may be right, of course. Those who didn't like season 8 stopped watching a long time ago. They're the drop-off from s8 to s9. That there wasn't a steady further decline through s9 supports that view.

Some of those who left after s8 may give a Christmas episode a chance, if they know enough to know that Christmas episodes are traditionally lighter in tone.

I know it's all subjective, but Mrs Brown's Boys and EastEnders have the highest figures! Urgh!

Just goes to show popularity is not the same as quality!

I cannot put into words how much I despise Eastenders An appalling programme that benefits from habit-forming repetitive viewing (to the extreme) and no competition on the other side.

OK . . maybe I can put it into words.

LOL!

Eastenders - Taking "lack of imagination" to the extreme for 30 years!

I stopped watching when they killed off Reg Cox.

Well Paul O'Grady's most recent Battersea broadcast on the 10th got 4.22 on the night so I don't think that's especially weak competition....

I'll throw my hat into the ring with 5.75 on the night consolidating to 7.06

You could well be right. I would make one guess, however, which is that whatever viewing figures Who gets on the day will be in line with the other BBC shows, as it was last year.

Depends on what it was up against, surely?