So given post 1474, you don't agree that TEH and Smith were any good then!

Influencing factors:

Incredibly uncommon warm weather in a british summer time - what is going on?
England messing up and not being the Saturday night game following the final episode
Multiple methods of viewing any programme

Also, if you want to look at the ratings for all types of programmes has any other original drama achieved better ratings whilst the last series was on?

The tv ratings in the Times this weekend only had the following beating that week's episode:

Eastenders; Corrie; Britain's Got Talent; BGT result and that is it! Eastenders only beat that week's episode by about a million or so. I couldn't tell you which episode it was as I have no idea when BGT finished and am quite happily living without that knowledge!

DW had better ratings than Lewis and the other staples shown that week!

All shows are experiencing drops in BARB ratings as viewing habits change and as such DW is performing strongly still.

Of course, spending as much energy promoting DW as they do that bloody Dorothy thing with Graeme Norton would help ratings somewhat!

People STILL make the effort to watch soaps as they are broadcast so therefore the argument for "viewing habits changing" is incredibly selective. Yes, the alternative ways of watching TV make a difference nowadays, but those figures can't be spun to make a negative a positive.

If viewers DON'T want to watch DW live, it may suggest many things.

a) yes, it's summer and they are enjoying the weather (not a factor in previous series).

b) They may be watching something else (obviously not a true Who fan)

c) People are not enjoying the series like they used to.

Using timeshift figures for DW to try and demonstrate the show hasn't lost viewers is not appropriate because overnights still show strong support for EastEnders, Corrie and programmes like Big Brother. Let's face it if people can tune in on a hot summer's night for dross like Big Brother, then when they don't for DW when previously they did, then indeed something needs addressing. I recognise the importance of timeshift but I still strongly believe the extremely messy and inconsistent scheduling is a huge factor in the viewer figures this year.

Sorry, I don't agree with that.

On Saturday, if the tennis game that was on finished earlier, meaning the Murray match was on at the same time as Doctor Who. I would have watched the tennis.

Does that make me 'not a true who fan'?

No it doesn't. It just means I wanted to watch a live tennis match, safe in the knowledge that I could watch Doctor Who afterwards. Watching it a couple hours later doesn't make me any less of a fan.

IF I had no way of catching up with Doctor Who and had to choose between the two it would have been Doctor Who that won. But I wouldn't have had to choose.

Using the final official ratings isn't appropriate?

The overnight ratings are quite rough around the edges and are tided up as well as having the time shifted factored in. It is really not on to say it isn't appropriate to use them, wizzy, with all due respect.

And the overnight ratings for all the soaps are down a good deal year on year. Not so long ago it was common place for them to get 15 million viewers, now it's headline news if they get 10 million! As for Big Brother, thats a show that has been axed due to low ratings. It barely even had 2 million viewers last night much later in the evening than Doctor Who has ever been on!!!

My sister and brother in law are big fans of the show, they now watch it on virgin catch up, my sister works saturday evening so they can watch it together that way sunday night. They then let my niece watch it on the monday if they think it will be okay for her.

Thats the kind of options people have now. To suggest these people are less fans of the show because they don't watch on the night is very unfair.

The fact is that most of the people that make up the audience of the show are not massive fans like we are. They are casual viewers who tune in to a few episodes a series - this has been backed up with data that shows that the vast majority of viewers do not watch every episode.

Further, to suggest that someone who watches the show because they happen to be home that evening and there is nothing else on it more of a fan than one who records the show to watch back every week really doesn't tally up to me.

I wasn't actually using timeshift figures to say the viewing figures had gone down - I was trying to point out that there is a downward trend for all types of programmes on first transmission.

The BARB figures for DW have not dropped as steeply as they have for many other types of programme and the very good timeshift figures are a positive but do not make up the full difference.

Although the soaps have more habitual viewers the figures for both EE and Corrie are dropping and have dropped by huge numbers in the last decade (in Corries case the age of the audience was quoted by one producer - the audience literally dying off). Of course the soaps benefit from (usually) being on at consistent times e.g. 7:30 and 8:30 on a Monday.

I have no idea what the figures are for BB but since it has reached it's final series I would guess it is the real hardcore that is left watching though I fail to understand why they do.

The BBC has made some strange decisions with scheduling not only DW as you rightly point out - something I forgot to mention, but Ashes to Ashes on a Friday and having HIGNFY and Outnumbered on Thursday when Friday has been BBC1 comedy night for years. A ridiculous decision in terms of ratings especially given how good Ashes to Ashes and Outnumbered were they deserved much higher audiences.

I expect a lot of viewers were thrown by the scheduling changes and missed parts of some episodes because of this. Even Sky+ is not always the solution as it missed the start of the odd episode!

I actually think Ashes to Ashes fans have a lot more to complain about re: scheduling than we do: the idea of putting the show on on a day and time when many of it's demographic audience were out for the night was really poor. With DW the worst people can really say is the time changed around too much.

I didn't watch A2A but know it's premise and fan base and was really surprised that the series just gone was on on a Friday night.

My sister loved it (and keeps telling me I need to watch it and LOM - I will get round to it at some point) but most of the time had to catch up with it as she was out when it was on.

Treat yourself to the box sets of Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes - very good cast, very good show.

If you feel like really spoiling yourself - Outnumbered is by far the best comedy on BBC1 in the last 10 plus years!

I remember checking the ratings in the 80s on ceefax. If they weren't in the list, the episode hadn't made the top 100. That happened quite often. Today's ratings look great to me! As long as they're high enough to keep in on the air, which they obviously are, then I'm happy happy happy.

Is it sad that I still miss Ceefax?

I had a letter posted on there once!

and of course your right about the ratings.

There is a certain amount of paranoia among fans of the show really, that trace back to the 1980's.

I also think people have been a bit spoiled. People complained ratings for Plant of the dead/Waters of Mars/end of time all weren't as good as they should have been, when in fact they all rated very strongly. I remember the predictions that End of Time would get 15/16 million viewers and the gloom when it "only" ended up with 10 million or so overnights on xmas day!!!

I blooming love Outnumbered! It is great

I think I will get round to watching LOM and A2A soon. Especially now a lot of the US shows I like have finished and no more Who till Chrimbo. (

It's not totally fair to use TV shows such as Corrie or Eastenders since the 3 soaps gain much of thier ratings by viewers watching out of habit. The target audience isn't the audience which will watch it on iplayer, they're two vey different shows and so comparison of these isn't the best.
They're also shown at two very different times, one at the the weekend and one in the week. The Saturday schedule is very full and so people will not miss one program for another which they can catch up on. This doesn't mean that they're not true fans, it jut means that they want to watch something else. Soaps are scheduled to win their slot and it's very rare for another channel to even schedule something big against them.

This is also the case for Big Brother. Saturdays show fell to an audience of 1.55 while during the week it had moved arround the 2 million mark The weekend schedule is a totally different kettle of fish to the weekday schedule so comparisons are, in the most part, bad.

You're being rather silly there.


It's selective because viewers don't treat all types of TV the same. For example - a recent report from Sky reveals that Sky+ users watch 17% of all TV timeshifted, but watch c.33% of drama timeshifted.

Two forms of TV are less likely to be timeshifted than the rest:
[LIST][*]Live events (ranging from sport to 'The X Factor') - because live viewing matters for them, especially in terms of interaction[*]Soaps - which are on several times a week, offer a catch up on another channel on the same night, and a weekend omnibus. There is an impetus to watch on the night so that key events can be talked about, and so they don't get behind. And they get an extra chance to view on the night.[/LIST]
It's also worth noting that timeshifting on the night (i.e. before 2am the next morning) is counted as if live.


There's no spinning necessary. The official TV viewing figures include timeshift. There's no negative there.


I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Someone choosing to timeshift, to actively set a recording and make a time to view it, are making a commitment, and are being just as interested, just as much a fan, as someone choosing to watch live. Possibly more so - as some of those watching live will always be casual viewers who watch just because it is on.


Why? They're still watching, they still get counted in the official BARB ratings.


I've covered soaps above - but Big Brother does a lot less well than Doctor Who, and is the ultimate in casual live viewing...!


You keep treating timeshifters as if they don't count, and that makes no sense at all.

I wouldn't know what support the Scum gives to DW, as I am a life long Liverpool fan I won't give it space in my house. My cats deserve to cr@p on better than that.

The scheduling of this year's episodes has been dreadful, but it's shown that there is an audience for DW, because the timeshift has been so spectacular.

Firstly, thanks to everyone who have replied to my posts and done their very best to convince me of the importance of Timeshift figures.

I have said that I consider these to be important but a couple of you have got confused as to what I meant as my posts do generally appear to be dissing the context of them. I will explain what i mean in a moment.

Secondly, the posts I make are my views and as such I do not deliberately mean to try and disregard factual statistics as inappropriate, but I do consider them to be inappropriate when people are trying to use these statistics to put a positive light on the occasional low live broadcast figures that series 5 got.

Now, to explain what I mean by recognising the importance of Timeshift.

Of course it is great that timeshifts have got 1million plus viewers. The iplayer and other means are certainly taking off but I do not believe we can be complacent and just assume that "viewers habits are changing" and if the decline of live broadcast figures continue but timeshift does not go up, then we are in seriously worrying territory.

I am trying to suggest (as I believe to be the case) that while the BBC are indeed probably looking at timeshift figures positively, they may well be concerned about the significant drop in overnights. Even against an episode of BGT in 2008, DW still pulled in over 6m overnights and that WASN'T the finale.

I guess the truth will become apparent not necessarily at Christmas, (although if it fails to get 8 million viewers at Christmas then the BBC will certainly be concerned), but during the course of series 6. If no recommissioning announcement is made prior to series 6 airing then we could have grounds for a bit of a "bum squeaking" moment.

i strongly believe that overnights should not just be disregarded and that while it is apparent that timeshift are going to play a part in our future habits, people still need to be enticed into watching a big event TV series at time of broadcast. If they no longer feel they want to watch it live, then of course executives are going to ask questions.

As I say, these are my views and it's what I think. Unfortunately the statistics provided, while indeed positive, are not going to convince me otherwise.

Look at it this way - forget about the numbers and answer the following questions...

What was the second most watched television programme on Saturday 26th of June 2010?

I'm not sure what the point of your post is? You seem to be saying that repeatedly watching an episode via iPlayer improves "viewing figures" for it and this is something you know to be true. Is it ok to ask what leads you to believe it?

They is no way to count repeat viewing of an episode on iplayer. My brother watched the eleventh hour 5 times in 1 day. Each would have been added to the iplayer viewing figures because there is no way of discerning who is watching. Each link has a unique code on it.

This really isn't true. They could very easily count views from the same IP address only once. My mate has a wine blog and he can look at 'total hits' and 'unique hits', so I'm pretty sure the BBC can too.

With all the talk of the BBC management possibly being worried about falling overnight figures for DW, it might be worth mentioning that of the £103m profit BBC Worldwide generated in 2008/9, £40.1m was from three programmes - Top Gear, Doctor Who and Planet Earth.

Press release here from last July - 2009/10 figures obviously due soon

But, it is true because if someone watches on there iplayer on one laptop and then watches later on the wii etc etc. Also you can watch it on sky player anywhere. The BBC don't try to count 'individual' viewers watching , the figures just count how many times it's been watched. Alot of hardcore fans have watched episodes a dozen or more times, come on own up! That's why iplayer figures haven't been added to the final figures yet, it's still in it's infancy and they may add it later when they can sort out the real count of 'viewers' rather than repeat views.

Nobody is spinning here, or 'trying to put a positive light' on things. We're dealing with concrete realities here, and I'm afraid that those that continue to place an overly heavy importance on the overnight figures are ignoring those realities.


Firstly - there are no assumptions here. We have facts, cast iron data that viewer habits are rapidly changing. We don't need to assume, we really don't.

Secondly - your worry is based on a 'what if', something that hasn't happened. It is a simple fact that as live figures have fallen, timeshift figure have gone up. As the general data regarding TV viewing would have us expect. So what is the point in dwelling on a theoretical 'what is that fails to continue to happen in the future'?


No. In 2008 it pulled in 5.4 million on overnights against BGT. That went up to 6.27 million in the final figure. Meanwhile the lowest overnight this year was 4.5 million - which rose to 6.49 million in the final figure. A staggering 2 million (40%) increase.

As for what the BBC think - we've heard what they think, and they've said they are happy because the series has been pulling in great figures and it doesn't matter whether those are overnight or timeshifted.


You know the saying 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink'? If viewing habits are changing, and people are moving more and more to timeshift TV, both TV executives and us will have to adapt to that new reality, not stand at the store like Canute demanding that the tide reverse itself.


Which is basically you saying that you've made a decision to be worried about something that doesn't need to be worried about, and you aren't going to let the facts get in the way of that. Are you sure that's an entirely rational way to think?

You know - TV overnights for most events will continue to shrink. One report I've seen suggests that PVR penetration will hit 80% of homes by mid 2012, and iPlayer is growing faster than anyone imagined it would. There might be ways to temporarily improve overnights (by, say, moving to a later timeslot with poorer competition), but in the end they will still continue to decline overall.

Two quick points -

1) There is a way to count repeat viewing of an episode, it's just that the BBC currently don't. They still know, however - and BARB are also intending to integrate measuring unique views in iPlayer into their data.

2) Atypical usage, such as that by your brother, is unlikely to significantly alter usage statistics anyway.