Many people have felt lukewarm about various episodes every single series. No change this year at all. i was luke warm about series 2, for example.

I don't really like the pretence that has gone in in some quarters this series that the fact that some people haven't enjoyed the series is a new thing: it's been there from the start.

And the AI's this series dismiss the notion that this series is anything other than popular with those that watch it. No down turn in AI means no wider dissatisfaction with the series.

I think it's a win-some/lose-some scenario. Those that are bewailing the fact that series 5 didn't work for them have to remember that there's an awful lot of people for whom earlier series didn't work and yet who have found 'their' Dr Who in series 5.

Exactly. This series has pleased some that didn't like the prior era, and displeased some that did. Meanwhile there are a handful that continue watching the show in spite of apparently hating almost every episode while the vast majority continue to enjoy the show as much as ever on the whole.

Of course I am thrilled that the show has been as popular as others overall. I am not disputing that or the AI figures.

My point was really referring to people who felt lukewarm outside of the Whoniverse. Those who watch with families with children who have watched in the past. If they sit down to watch yet stories such as "The Beast Below" or "The Time of Angels" two parter and even "Amy's Choice" have been too confusing or complexed for younger children to grasp, it is certainly a consideration that these children/families may have lost the enthusiasm for the show that may have had previously. At least they may not feel it as crucial to watch as regularly.

Don't get me wrong, I think series 5 has been visually stunning, beautiful and extremely well crafted. The ideas that SM has are amazing. But both the BBC and SM have said they don't make DW for purely DW fans. If they did they wouldn't get it right, ever. But, the average viewer doesn't analyse or vote on each episode as we do, nor would they concern themselves with the ratings.

RTD, did, despite criticism, create a Whoniverse that had something for everyone. I realise his "soapy" elements were berated and hated by many, especially on these forums. But, no one can deny that his vision of Who worked and was successful.

Of course SM's vision is different and is still successful. But, lukewarm fans especially for the more casual viewer, are probably not tuning in for the live broadcast like they would have done previously.

I think, series 6 may be slightly tweaked to appeal to that audience again. I don't for a minute think the "soapy" elements will return in the scope as they were before, but I do think that the show DOES need to appeal to the masses again. After all true DW fans seem to approve of this last series. Now, the job is to make everyone who will watch it approve. That's why RTD was a success.

the wider audience view is expressed in the AI figures, which remain excellent, so with respect it feels like you are disputing them.

No. I am expressing an opinion which, with respect you along with others do not have any desire to take on board. My nephew who is seven, watched Doctor Who from series 3.

This year when I ask him if he is watching it, he says "sometimes". My sister then tells me "He doesn't like it. Don't think he knows what's going on."

That is the same view a work colleague tells me about her daughter. I used to record each episode three times. One for me, one for my sister and one for my work colleague's daughter. Now I don't do it for my work colleagues daughter as i have been told not to bother as her daughter doesn't really understand it anymore.

The AIs can be high even with low viewing figures so I am not disputing that at all.

Do you have any evidence as to how younger children have reacted to the episodes you mention? Any statistics? Or is this how you see them? My own purely subjective hunch is that children will have enjoyed the Doctor being in the mouth of the beast more than adults. Again, purely my own opinion, SM understands children and has some of his own on which to test reaction.

You are right that DW has to appeal to a mainstream audience. This is a difficult path to tread, but something of which he is aware. He said in an interview with his son on Youtube that he doesn't read forums because he can't just concentrate on obsessives like himself. The only evidence that we do have suggests that he is going to be as successful as RTD without going quite so far in the direction of mawkishness.

If their was a wider dissatisfaction with the series we would have seen AI's dip significantly. That is just a fact. Niche shows that always have a small audience may well get high AI, but a show that has a large audience who are more dis-satisfied with it would be reflected by a large dip in the AI, probably to below the 80's,

Anecdotal evidence is unhelpful. My niece just started watching the show this year and loves it. Does that mean more or less than your anecdotal evidence?

I have to say here: you say people in this thread aren't taking on board your point of view. I have to say in my view, despite what you claim, you are ignoring many many valid points which are backed up by significant evidence while your claims are based on pretty much none.

With respect though, that is purely anecdotal and you have no way of knowing what the rest of the population feel about the show.

My cousins daughter (8) used to hate Doctor Who. When it was on and her brother (10) was watching it, she used to go and play with something else.

But this series she has watched and enjoyed it as she likes Matt and Karen and neither of them have had any trouble following the stories.

But again, that is just anecdotal going on my experience. I know I cannot assume the whole population has experienced the same as my cousins family.

The only way we can know what is in the minds outside of forums and people we know is by the AI.

I have taken on board many evidential posts and have conceded that I should be more aware of the importance of timeshift figures, which a week ago, i wouldn't have realised. I also value different points of view and have appreciated the time taken by many posters, including yourself, to try and convince me that my views regarding overnights, are a little outdated. In a way these posters have succeeded. I do have a slightly different opinion than I did previously.

However, I am not suggesting that SM doesn't understand children or that children in general don't understand it. I was expressing a hyperthetical view that if at least two people with families have told me of their change of heart towards the show, then I guess there must be others. Not everyone sees the show as we do on these forums.

Of course there are many families who do watch and enjoy, and possibly families who watch now but didn't during RTD's tenure, but no one can deny that there will undoubtedly be previous families who do not watch anymore.

And it goes without saying that for people who have turned their nose up at series 5 there are others who are now watching for the first time, post-Tennant and post-RTD.

and, again, that is what the AI is for. This measures the response the wider audience have to a programme. The viewers have rated almost every episode this series excellent and the average for the series as a whole remains in the "excellent" bracket.

People will tune in and out of the show, and have done since the first series of the classic show. There is nothing noteworthy about this fact. Most people out there are not massive fans of the show, more casual viewers, after all. All data indicates the show remains a massive success. Isn't that all that matters?

Three of my mates - all women in their mid thirties - have become really big fans for the first time this season. Constantly badgering me for dvds etc. Swings and roundabout eh?!

Yes I agree, and long may they do so!

On the AI figures, is there a nice summary somewhere that describes how they are collated and calculated? I'd be interested in reading them. Also, I seem to remember a "child's panel" where five or so kids of varying ages gave their reactions as the programme ran. Is that still around?

I've taken this from the FAQ they used to have on GB:


The Fear Factor panal isn't around anymore, but that wasn't really about them giving there views on the episode so much as marking out of 5 how scary it was. It used to get posted the wednesday before an episode aired.

It also gave the BBC the opportunity to give some teasers for the forthcoming episode by quoting some of the reactions of the family to the episode when they viewed

I think it's possibly the case that they are now simply writing for a slightly different section of the audience. RTD pulled in eight year olds as well as older viewers but from what a couple of people I know have said (yes, anecdotal evidence again, I know) their thirteen and fourteen year old's didn't watch as they thought it was silly. Now, they're watching and enjoying while the younger sister of one has given up as she doesn't understand it and can't accept a new Doctor. But there's nothing wrong with that! Over three decades ago, one of classic Who's best writers, Bob Holmes, said he felt it would be irresponsible to let a child under ten watch it alone, while producer Philip Hinchcliffe claimed to be aiming the show at intelligent teenagers and up. A few years later, producer Graham Williams took the show in a completely different direction to bring in a younger audience, but the older ones hated it and started watching Buck Rogers on ITV instead. It goes in cycles and you can never please everyone, but so long as the ratings stay high because someone is watching, it's still succeeding.

sorry to rain on your parade, but thats not the case:

from GB:

Thanks for that response Ting. I can't disagree with a single word of it!

see the data above.....

Wow, I knew they would be above average but didn't know they were that much above average.

Good stuff.

Muttley, there was no need to post that rather indignant post that "proved" Ting wrong. He wasn't generalising, he was merely just stating some logical thoughts that can or can not be proved but in each case proof is irrelevant as common sense would back his post up.

Sometimes, statistics are not necessary.

This is a thread about ratings at the end of the day. Posting data about the viewing audience is what it's all about.

And there was nothing "indignant" about my post there at all...yours on the other hand......

This is ancedotal but I think it does give some indication to teenagers liking the school. For the Blood of Cybermen event 5 school pupils from each school in Glasgow was invited. The Glasgow schools decided to give this as an exclusive 1st year invite and would be judged by pulling names out of a hat. My school at least, recieved over 150 "that isn't fair" remarks from other years and it was opened to all year. It was also decided that you would have to include a presenttion on why you liked DW. Over our school, 89% took part in the competition. I know that it isn't great because so many other factors have to be thrown in such as, was the school an exception, was it peer pressure leaing people to enter ? But I still think it goes some way in shoing that most teenagers still enjoy the show.

She wasn't being indignat, she proved someone wrng by using facts, nothing wrong with that - it's the point of threads on the internet. I've been proved wrong many times on these forums and I've just ccepted that on the internet, people will be able to show sctual facts which prove your point wrong.