Well, to quote the wise old bird that is my mum: "two wrongs don't make a right, do they". Using as a justification for greed that others are greedy too isn't that impressive. Is it? I am not in the least suggesting that Cameron live the life of Jesus. However, given that he already earns a good salary, has a home and a comfortable lifestyle - it would be an easy thing for him to give away this £70k and thereby demonstrate to all those who saw him do so, what Christiainity is all about. Personally , I would be delighted if the heirarchy in the Church also practiced what they preach and gave more of their indefensible wealth to charity too. So thank you for supporting my argument.

In response to Northgirl's comments, I believe that Cameron's attitiude to the £70k reveals a lot about the sincerity of his faith. What possible justification can he have for keeping it? Apart from, as you yourself point out, a love for money/possessions which is greater than his love of God. God and Jesus would want to see him put this money to good use. Buying a car for himself and a bathroom for his brother is not good use. So yes, perhaps Cameron's new found faith is still quite weak. In my opinion it is not a good strategy to preach until you are prepared to practice. He did too much preaching when in the BB house. He had a minimum of nine weeks to contemplate what he should do if he won the £70k (certainly enough time to be able to give a fairly fulsome response when asked by Davina). And so yes I do judge him "without knowing the full picture" as you put it - but you should not fall into the trap of judging me, when, in truth, the picture you have of me is significantly less well informed than the one I have of him.

The only way I am judging you is saying you are criticising one person without first looking at your own imperfections. You are quite possibly a lovely person who if anyone looked at your life under a microscope would come up smelling of roses[to mix metaphors!!].
I know I am a long way short of perfect and am just trying to get people to consider whether Cameron is any worse than the general public out there[or even any worse than any on DS or are you all little angels??].
He never said he was perfect rather the reverse and the preaching comment is going a little far. He gave responses to direct questions, did quote the bible when he thought something particularly relevant [in the diary room], and was asked by someone [Ray I think] to read a bible passage at the christmas meal [unusual but as he probably would go to church on christmas day normally I don't find it that strange].

Until he buys an expensive car that is all speculation, but hey why bother knowing the facts when you can bash Cameron a little more. I know I am fighting a losing battle, I did enjoy watching others on BB, and don't think he is wonderful/lush/fit/gorgeous etc, but I think he is basically a nice guy.

Originally posted by northgirl

"The only way I am judging you is saying you are criticising one person without first looking at your own imperfections. "

But surely that's the bit you can't possibly know isn't it? You are assuming that I am unaware of my own imperfections. I am very aware of my own imperfections - and hypocrisy isn't one of them. I do have plenty of others though, I assure you!


"I know I am a long way short of perfect and am just trying to get people to consider whether Cameron is any worse than the general public out there[or even any worse than any on DS or are you all little angels??."

Nope, I am nowhere near an angel. Nor would I ever put myself in the situation where I expose my beliefs to public scrutiny unless I was confident of upholding them. Cameron could easily have held his beliefs without publicising them - that was a choice he made.


"He never said he was perfect rather the reverse and the preaching comment is going a little far. He gave responses to direct questions, did quote the bible when he thought something particularly relevant [in the diary room..."

...Yes, I consider that to be preaching - he could just as easily have read the bible quietly to himself, and if it was not his intention to get a message across I am sure he would have done so. By opting to read out loud in the diary room he made a conscious decision to preach.


"Until he buys an expensive car that is all speculation, but hey why bother knowing the facts when you can bash Cameron a little more. I know I am fighting a losing battle, I did enjoy watching others on BB, and don't think he is wonderful/lush/fit/gorgeous etc, but I think he is basically a nice guy."

Until he donates a significant (and, let's face it, why not all?) amount of the £70k to causes more worthy than the ones he has identified (and I did hear him saying that he wanted to buy himself a new car - it wasn't just his mum) then I will continue to hold my belief that he is behaving hypocritically. Sorry you feel that this is 'bashing' him. I kind of feel it is offering justified criticism of his non-Christian attitude to his newly acquired and superfluous wealth.

I admire your determination to defend him: I only wish he was more worthy of your obvious kindness and sincerity.[/b] [b]

Northgirl, I admire your thoughtful posts on defending Cameron, however I think this line of reasoning is somewhat flawed given the premise of BB as a series.

The whole point of BB is that we are presented with a disparate group of individuals who are left to sink or swim by virtue of their own personalities in an environment where even the most trivial emotional responses are heightened and amplified. The audience visits this human zoo and we are drawn into intimate proximity with these people but still allowed to retain our privileged position as spectators.

BB basically is pretty reprehensible television when you really think about it. It appeals to our base, judgmental instincts and gives us an illusionary sense of power by being able to decide which contestants stayed in the house and which were evicted. To achieve this, BB actually *legitimises* dislike of certain housemates, hence the present negative voting system.

To imply that forum members are being self-righteous when they criticise Cameron (or any other contestant) may very well be correct, but simultaneously misses the point of what BB is all about. Any flaws we forum members display in their daily lives - e.g. the standard pro-Cameron line "I suppose you've never said you could kill someone in a fit of anger and frustration" - are completely irrelevant. The fact is that we didn't choose to put ourselves in the public eye. But the BB contestants *did*.

Ok, I understand that some criticism will occur and accept that, but the reason I feel drawn to defend Cameron is because it seems so over the top. He is demonised on here and every aspect of him torn apart by some. He may not be your favourite and obviously pointing out his faults is part of your enjoyment, but when whatever he does is either ridiculed or pulled to bits then I feel it is all getting a bit much.

He chose to put himself forward and I am sure he knew the consequences, but i feel he is [despite his high powered job] quite a vulnerable character and the hatred here would hurt anyone. I thought it telling [and I don't buy this"it is all an act" you can't do it for 9 weeks!!] in one of his initial interviews he said about people thinking he was fat and read that he was once quite a bit bigger. He was matter of fact about it, but he obviously had things that he was working through in the house and I do think he has learnt from this experience.

The cynical on DS seem to think the comments on being more open from the start with people are still part of an act - I believe it is genuine and that he is too.
ME
Naive - maybe. Trying to see the best - yes. Recognise the negative side of BB - yes. Yet I feel there is more to BB than the choosing who to support and slagging off the people we don't warm to. I enjoy seeing the relationships developing, the interaction, how they react to the pressures and don't feel I have to hate someone to enjoy it.

Whilst I appreciate your sentiments, I would point out that Cameron is not being "demonised" without any reasoning behind the negative comments concerning him. I can't help but feel that your sympathies are misplaced.

I'm Church of Scotland and CoS is the most laid back religion you'll ever find!!

{edit} oh and....

Where should my sympathies lie - on here he is the underdog whose every word and action is scrutinised for the most negative angle. One example would be the smacking question. He stated [as did most of the rest of the housemates] that in some circumstances that smacking might be used, but not the belt and only on the bottom/top of legs. Is this what most on here heard because I saw lots of posts suggesting he supported the belt, the complete opposite of his views.

There are several other statements that are now seen as gospel by anti-cam people on here [like the shitting in shoes etc] having found the tape on an old video recently I don't believe it is as clear-cut as some on here would have us believe. He has said things which have disappointed me [the punching comment], but I would like to hear his full views on certain subjects before making sweeping statements [he is a homophobe etc].

He is flawed, but I still find him likeable [out of step with most on here]. I will probably find I make the wrong choice on who to support on FA as well !!!

Aw cmon, babes! 'a relatively new Christian'? You're either a Christian or you're not. It's in the heart, and that travels all the way through all of your dealings.
Christianity is basic socialism. It's a case of caring what happens to others, making allowances for them, trying not to judge, believing in kindness to all, irrespective of their impact on your preconceptions.
As I say, you've either got it or you ain't. Cameron hasn't, and never will have. Will he ever understand -
The disciple whom Jesus loved?
Mary's decision to break a most precious lotion over Jesus' feet, despite her sister Martha's cries for frugality?
Jesus' decision to turn water into wine so everyone could have a good booze up?
Jesus' acceptance of the prostitute Mary Magdelene?
Jesus' promotion of the life of hedonism and aestheticism 'consider the lilies of the field, they toil not neither do they spin'?

Jesus was a great bloke. He was my kinda man. He knew how to party, and he accepted homosexuality and prostitution. But he cleared the stock exchange and the credit sharks out of the temples, and he said clearly that you can't be a slave to money and be real.
He said in The Good Samaritan that the person against whom you may have the greatest prejudice may be the person who could help you in times of distress.
Jesus was the greatest teacher of love and compassion.
Did he ever advocate smashing someone's face to the back of their throat? Did he ever complain about drunkenness? Did he ever show homophobia?

What I don't like about Cameron's view of Christianity is that some people actually believe that the intolerance Cameron spouted could in any way be linked to the real message of the man/myth which is Jesus, and which inspires my life, and gives it meaning and hope, and richness, and love for all.

I like Jesus. He talked sense. He was fun. WWJD - well for a start, he wouldn't do a crap show on the telly!

Great post, Godot. But Cameron strikes me as being a very Old Testament Christian!

Perhaps form opinions solely on the basis of watching the programme and not the forum?

I really think that this whole Christian/Bible/Jesus is being taken too far. He tries his best to be a Christian and reads the Bible to enrich his understanding. There will be a campaign next to encourage him to take Holy Orders to prove he's genuine.

And he's doing a lousy job of it. IMHO.

I said that I had problems with his comment about Jon [not because he would actually be violent but because he did have problems with Jon and struggled to see his good side, having said that he seemed to be ok with Jon most of the time when he came back in].

"You're either a Christian or you're not. It's in the heart, and that travels all the way through all of your dealings."
I think you can struggle when you have recently come to faith and know you have aspects of your character so ingrained which go against your new faith. He knows he has problems with being too critical and is working through that - we can't all do what God wants the minute we find faith.

"As I say, you've either got it or you ain't. Cameron hasn't, and never will have."
I find it very sad as a christian if you feel people can't change as this goes against everything I have read in the bible.

Jesus spent time with all different people and he accepted people, but not necessarily what they did. Prostitution was wrong, but he saw befriending was needed first before he pointed out how God wants us to live our life. Partying was fine, but letting yourself become so drunk that you can't control your actions - I don't think he would advocate that. Cameron has no problem with drinking and partying [in my view], but finds the excesses difficult.

Ben, you are probably right that he does seem to look alot at the OT. Some good things are there, but I use the NT as more of a map for living my life. I am trying to put the other side to all the negative comments on here not excusing all he has said and done but pointing out he is not as evil as portrayed on here.

PS Where does it mention Jesus accepting homesexuality? Just curious how you came to this view from the NT.

I wonder what Jesus would do as well?
Would he have bitched late at night about other hm's to the chosen few, influence voting? Not any night Sunday night's !!
I may have believed that Cameron was a good man myself, if it hadn't been for this consistant flaw...
1 sunday night, I could have forgiven. EVERY sunday night?
Nah !!

I am concerned that any of the comments I have made about Cameron might have been interpreted by you as 'demonising' and 'hateful'.

I was attracted to this thread because the question was posed 'what would Jesus do' with the £70k. I am simply putting the point that Jesus would have given the money to the needy - a point I don't believe you would refute?

Part of Cameron's 'winning ticket' was his Christianity and he certainly didn't shy away from using it to his advantage during the show. As I pointed out in my last reply to you (to which you don't appear to have responded) Cameron chose to advertise his Christian beliefs. I do think therefore, that it is pefectly understandable that we express our perplexity on his loss of Christian morality when it comes to disposing of his money (which promoting his Christian beliefs helped him to win). Hardly demonising or hateful?

P.S. How 'newly' Christian is Cameron? Given that he gives the reason for his virginity as his being a Christian, and he is aged 32, the average age for losing your virginity is 17 does that mean that Cameron has been a Christian for approximately 15 years?

Can I just add that Christians have mortgages, families and other outgoings and as much as I am sure they would love to give all their money to the poor, not everyone can give it ALL away !

Couple of thoughts:

Cameron is a practising Christian. Like many, he's practising because he hasn't got it right yet and to expect him to be 100% perfect is perhaps a little unreal. However, he at least has a goal in his life, a set of standards that he is trying to live by and we all get it wrong in some areas of our lives !

Secondly if you watched the "week in the life" programme last night you would have seen that Cameron did not belive that he would win, and that right up to the last he didn't even know if the money was in his account. So to start judging him on what he will do with it is a bit premature.

Yes I would like to see him give some of the money away, but isn't that between him and God ?

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!

Nobody has suggested that Cameron give ALL his money away - I have suggested that he give ALL (or at the very least a reasonable percentage) of his WINNINGS away. If, as you suggest, Cameron had never expected to win, he also never expected to receive the £70k, so why not give it away - he could hardly miss it? BB will provide him with plenty of opportunity to make money, to add to his reported £100k annual salary.

If what he does is between him and God, then, in my opinion (stated above and earlier) he should have avoided using his relationship with God to curry favour and increase his chance of winning BB in the first place. Having used his beliefs to increase his popularity, then he should not neglect them now he is in a position to do something really positive and Christian.

The mortgage, bills etc. bit is totally irrelevant to what he does with the £70k - he is in the very same situation, finanacially (if not a better one) than when he went into the BB house. He can't have done it to pay off his mortgage - given that he never for one minute imagined he'd win. Oh, and by the way, despite the fact that he had had no time to think - he did say that he planned to pay for his brother's bathroom, a piano, present for his parents, buy a car, etc. Furthermore, on last night's programme, when asked again, he repeated that he had already said what he had planned to do with the money, and that he hadn't changed his mind.

What would Jesus do? was a question he liked to ask himself - why has he stopped asking himself that question now he's out of the house. Jesus would give the cash to the needy. We can only assume that is why Cameron no longer feels the question WWJD is relevant.

[quote]Originally posted by Godot
[b]

Jesus was a great bloke. He was my kinda man. He knew how to party, and he accepted homosexuality and prostitution. But he cleared the stock exchange and the credit sharks out of the temples, and he said clearly that you can't be a slave to money and be real.
He said in The Good Samaritan that the person against whom you may have the greatest prejudice may be the person who could help you in times of distress.
Jesus was the greatest teacher of love and compassion.
Did he ever advocate smashing someone's face to the back of their throat? Did he ever complain about drunkenness? Did he ever show homophobia?


I love U Godot - the message above is what a lot of "Christians" have truly forgoton.
and that you do not have to go to church or read the Bible to be a Christian. Many people are Chritians without knowing it. You either have it (and it comes from the heart) or you have'nt (and it does not come from a book).
Thank you Godot for the above. I shall be sending you e-mail to many friends

I still have a huge, massive beef with the fact the Cameron USED his Christianity to win BB.
Having morals etc is not a bad thing. I didnt' have a single qualm about them at all. Even his not drinking. I rarely drink myself now due to my circumstances. Being a virgin I have no qualm's with either. Yet he is 32 and we are led to believe he has only recently become a christian. Sorry I think that is a load of bull........
Now if he had said, that after finding christianity, he had/has abstained from premarital sex? This I would readily have found more truthful.
He never bought out the bible issue, unless he was nominated, or wanted to persuade other's to nominate who he wanted.You can bring out all the " no one is perfect " argument's all you like.
He USED christianity to win this programme. That in it's self, to me is sinful and far worse than any of the other's.
I believe in god... If that make's me a christian?? who know's?
The way that I behave and conduct myself, I do to the best I can.
not perfect by any mean's.
I treat other's by how I wish to be treated. I have respect for other's religious belief's.

I would NEVER use any of my belief's to attempt to win a reality show though.
THIS is why I find Cameron distasteful.
Not because of his belief's, but how he has used them for his own gain and as a tool, to be at his most nasty in tearing into other's behaviour.
Oh yes I forgot !! We must not mention his nasty side now, shall we? He is after all a Christian ............

Being Christian and Rich are, interestingly enough not mutually exclusive. To be a good Christian, it is not necessary to give up all your money.

The famous eye of the needle quote already referred to in this thread explains this the best if you know a little bit more about Christianity than watching the service on Easter Sunday. The Eye of the Needle was a famous Gate into the City of Jerusalem. So named because it was a very narrow gate. It was possible to get a camel through the eye of the needle, but it was a very difficult thing to do. Jesus, as pretty much always was being realistic about human beings. Its difficult but not impossible to get to heaven if you are rich.

As a Christian, I see absolutely nothing wrong with Cameron's donation or non-donation of his prize money to the church, charity or anyone else for that matter. Surely it's completely his choice what he does with the money. It's really beginning to grate on me that people think being a Christian means that you have to be more of a saint than anyone else.

I say this as someone who was and isn't keen on Cameron. But We are not meant to be the judge of his behaviour. His own conscous should do that more than adiquately. It's beginning to grate on me a lot the view that he should behave in a whiter than white way because he is a Christian. That strikes me as being more fanatical than even the most fervid of religious people. As a Catholic we have confession, communion etc. etc just because we are not perfect!

That was well put CPA.
I always think that those that voice what Charity they are giving money to are desiring reflected glory whereas a truly altruistic gesture would be made anonymously, discreetly.
So it is the same with this Bible in hand bit, a little overdramatising things Cameron, and to me that diluted any beliefs you purport to have, weilding it as you did in a blatant bid to aid winning.
I thought everyone else in that house displayed more Christian-like principles than him. Even Lisa.

Thanks for this prettyflowers, you put it so well.

It's beginning to grate on me that the many Christians who come on here to defend Cameron consistently avoid the point.

I repeat, no one is suggesing that Cameron give up ALL his money, but why not the prize money? Given that he has no need of it whatsoever, and says he didn't expect to receive it, what, other than greed, would motivate him to keep it?

The other point you fail to address, and has been much mentioned, is the fact that he was happy enough to use his Christianity to curry favour and actually WIN the money, but now he forsakes his Christian beliefs in its disposal. Jesus would have given it to the needy, wouldn't he?