[kd001]

I think the time has come for me to buy an HD LCD display but I am worried about the fact when it comes to standard definition HD screens have poorer quality than non-HD ones. For example, my friend has just bought a top of the range Sony Bravia 46inch screen (KDL-46X3500). The HD display is brilliant-- no doubt about it. However, the standard definiton picture is jagged around the edges and at times there are definite slowing down issues. The picture is definitely worse than my non HD screen. I understand that all HD screens have built in upscalers but clearly in this case it is not quite good enough. Obviously I am not expecting to view standard definition pictures at HD quality -- I just want them to be as good as those shown by my non HD screen. Am I asking for a miracle or is there a DVD upscaler that can do that? Is the upscaler on sonys BDP-S500 blu-ray player any good? Sorry for the lengthy question but this is quite important for me as I've got a large collection of standrad DVDs

Any advice will be much appreciated.

[Jarrak]

You don't mention what your current TV is but I assume it's a CRT and hence designed for the substandard SD broadcasts the UK has somehow came to possess. The HD displays even though they are much higher technology are really made for HD sources and yes as you say the scaling and de-interlacing which allows a SD source to be viewed full screen on a higher resolution display is the weak point of the system but the quality of the SD makes a huge difference.

I've just bough a 46PZ5 and the scaling of Dsat SD sources is rather good, not perfect and ITV1 is fairly poor on the F1 and I'll take this screen over a CRT any day of the week (same for my precious 9986 LCD).

You just have to do your homework and then learn what processing on the TV works with SD and which doesn't because watching SD on a HD telly is far more critical in terms of variables than it was on a modern CRT.

As for DVD no HD telly should really look anything but very good with that source material especially if connected via Component or HDMI, choosing between the DVD or TV for scaling will be down to the two units performance.

Can't comment on the Sony Blu-ray, I bought the PS3 for Blu-ray and it is regarded as a good scaler.

[kd001]

Yes my current tv is a CRT - a Sony Trinitron. I have to say I am not too bothered about the quality of TV broadcasts. I am more concerned about watching SD DVDs. So I am looking for a good DVD upscaler that will at least mach the quality of the Trinitron. And unfortunatley the only way to do this is from other people's experience. You say that DVDs should look very good on HD tellies but I have seen many HD tellies from leading brands where the quality of standard DVDs (not just TV broadcasts) is not as good that on my Trinitron.

[bobcar]

The other very important thing to bear in mind is that for the most part the HD TVs are actually bigger so unless you sit further away the picture will look worse even if it was the same quality. Your friend has a 46" TV (equivalent to a 48" CRT) so that will be much bigger than your CRT (over twice as big assuming you had a 32" at the same distance).

DVDs do usually look good on an HD TV but if you want a reasonably priced upscaler then an HD-DVD player can be got at a reasonable price. A standard DVD player that upscales is unlikely to be an improvement on your Sony's upscaler and may well be worse - or bite the bullet and go for BluRay which will also upscale well.

[dennisspooner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd001

I think the time has come for me to buy an HD LCD display but I am worried about the fact when it comes to standard definition HD screens have poorer quality than non-HD ones. For example, my friend has just bought a top of the range Sony Bravia 46inch screen (KDL-46X3500). The HD display is brilliant-- no doubt about it. However, the standard definiton picture is jagged around the edges and at times there are definite slowing down issues. The picture is definitely worse than my non HD screen. I understand that all HD screens have built in upscalers but clearly in this case it is not quite good enough. Obviously I am not expecting to view standard definition pictures at HD quality -- I just want them to be as good as those shown by my non HD screen. Am I asking for a miracle or is there a DVD upscaler that can do that? Is the upscaler on sonys BDP-S500 blu-ray player any good? Sorry for the lengthy question but this is quite important for me as I've got a large collection of standrad DVDs

Any advice will be much appreciated.

My advice is that if you intend to watch standard def material on the set you should get upscaling devices wherever possible.

Nigel Goodwin and others are fond of telling people that upscaling done by the tv is good enough but as you have seen - it isnt.

I have a Sky HD box which upscales nicely for broadcast tv and I have an HD DVD player and PS3 for upscaling dvd's.

The Sony 500 player is over priced.

The PS3 is the best Bluray player at the moment and likely to be so for at least another year.

I know its awful to look at but its a small price to pay for not waiting 60 seconds for your Sony player disc tray to open and then another 30 seconds before it starts playing.

And the PS3 will be a cinch to resell later on when standalones are worth buying - unlike a current standalone.

Having said all that - depending on the screen size and your viewing distance you may well not even be able to see the shortcomings of a non upscaled picture when watching even though you know they are there

The bottom line is that standard def material will not stand up to the close inspection on an LCD that it does on a CRT.

Even upcaled you are likely to see things that the CRT would hide.

But for normal viewing you will be pleasantly surprised by the improved colour and nicer look to the picture

Of course dont even think about watching VHS!!

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kd001

Obviously I am not expecting to view standard definition pictures at HD quality -- I just want them to be as good as those shown by my non HD screen.

Despite dennisspooner's enthusiasm for external upscalers, you're not going to ever get as good a picture as using an SD signal feeding an SD screen. No matter where it upscales, it has to create data to make the picture fit the screen, and it's how well it does this that seperates a good scaler from a poor one.

Considering your set is an expensive X series, it should already have one of the best scalers available.

[Jarrak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Considering your set is an expensive X series, it should already have one of the best scalers available.

Which can be ruined by the enthusiasm by manufacturers for gimmicky named digital processing modes

My Pana has something called Intelligent Frame Creation which is designed to smooth the picture but the result is for football the processing is so underpowered the ball becomes jerkorama when flying infront of the crowd, too much data to process.
Switch this IFC off and hey presto a nice smooth ball on SD and HD sources

[winactive]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarrak

Which can be ruined by the enthusiasm by manufacturers for gimmicky named digital processing modes

My Pana has something called Intelligent Frame Creation which is designed to smooth the picture but the result is for football the processing is so underpowered the ball becomes jerkorama when flying infront of the crowd, too much data to process.
Switch this IFC off and hey presto a nice smooth ball on SD and HD sources

Agreed. DNIe and MoviePlus are OFF on my Samsung Plasma.

[dennisspooner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Despite dennisspooner's enthusiasm for external upscalers, you're not going to ever get as good a picture as using an SD signal feeding an SD screen.

And I've never said you would.

I have said that external upscalers can be superior to letting the tv do it all.

However - I think non upscaled SD on an LCD looks pretty bad unless you sit far enough away to hide the problems.

But the upscaling on my Sky HD ,PS3 and HD DVD player do seem to bring the sd picture back to the acceptable quality I had when watching SD on my CRT

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisspooner

I have said that external upscalers can be superior to letting the tv do it all.

I notice you've now added 'can' instead of your normal blanket assurtion that it's always superior.

Quote:

However - I think non upscaled SD on an LCD looks pretty bad unless you sit far enough away to hide the problems.

There are specific minimum distances regardless, and your assumptions are based on a poor TV set.

Quote:

But the upscaling on my Sky HD ,PS3 and HD DVD player do seem to bring the sd picture back to the acceptable quality I had when watching SD on my CRT

You've already said, in another thread, that the upscaler in your Panasonic TV is poor quality (and others have said the same), that's why you're getting an improvement using external ones. TV's with decent upscalers don't obtain this improvement from external scalers, and it may not even be as good?.

[dennisspooner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

I notice you've now added 'can' instead of your normal blanket assurtion that it's always superior.

I added "can" because despite my set up looking better via the external upscaling there seems to be others who prefer the tv doing it - but then there are others who prefer 720 to 1080.

As for blanket assertions- thats more your department.

Apart from replies to my posts I've yet to see you reply to anyone else with anything other than your distorted view that tv's do it better always

You yourself said you were suprised that a make like Panasonic would sell inferior upcalers- so your opinion was based on looking at non Panny tv's.

So you dont know it all - so dont pretend that you do

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

TV's with decent upscalers don't obtain this improvement from external scalers, and it may not even be as good?.

All depends on what external scalers you are talking about - stand alone scalers will generally wipe the floor with the onboard scalers used in most top end TV's, including Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer. Manufactures that come to mind are Crystalio and Calibre

There are even high end DVD players with onboard scalers that will do the same, Denon and Lexicon to name just two.

Scalers in TV's are good but still made to a budget.

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyW

All depends on what external scalers you are talking about - stand alone scalers will generally wipe the floor with the onboard scalers used in most top end TV's, including Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer. Manufactures that come to mind are Crystalio and Calibre

There are even high end DVD players with onboard scalers that will do the same, Denon and Lexicon to name just two.

Scalers in TV's are good but still made to a budget.

Yes but these are all very expensive (more than most TVs, though the cards are cheaper) and they do much more than simple upscaling, how many people are going to pay £1000 for a TV then £2000 upwards for a video processor?

If you want better upscaling and video processing than is available in the TV then you have to pay for it. People getting a £100 upscaling DVD player thinking it's going to be better than a decent TV are going to be very disappointed though many will convince themselves it is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

Yes but these are all very expensive (more than most TVs, though the cards are cheaper) and they do much more than simple upscaling, how many people are going to pay £1000 for a TV then £2000 upwards for a video processor?

An enthusiast.

I bought a Lumagen to go with a Panasonic panel a few years back which cost around the same price as the TV, basically because I wanted to take advantage of the SDi mod on the Sky+ box, which cost £350, more than the + box cost in the first place. So there are idiots out there as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

If you want better upscaling and video processing than is available in the TV then you have to pay for it. People getting a £100 upscaling DVD player thinking it's going to be better than a decent TV are going to be very disappointed though many will convince themselves it is better.

Agree totally, I just wanted some clarification on what Nigel meant by external scaler, whether he meant all external scalers or just the ones found in budget DVD players.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyW

Agree totally, I just wanted some clarification on what Nigel meant by external scaler, whether he meant all external scalers or just the ones found in budget DVD players.

Obviously just domestic ones, not professional or semi-professional ones - the types dennisspooner is referring to.