Why so much fuss over Lee telling 'lies' on his CV?

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Mr.Z

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by Saigo:
“I assume you are not an employer then.

Assuming you have checked with "everyone you know" then you must associate with low achievers and liars.

You might if it means you subsequently get sacked. Or prosecuted for obtaining financial advantage through deception.

He lied.

Because it makes a mockery of the entire recruitment system. Bigging yourself up or phrasing things to make them sound grander than they really are is not the same as LYING about your educational background.

A 'humorous' acknowledgement that it does go on. Does not make it acceptable in a professional environment.

You could try working hard and improving yourself. Very sad that you think like this - instead of going out and getting a qualification in order to help your career, you would rather lie about it and hope you don't get caught.

What if doctors and paramedics lied on their CV? Accountants? Dentists? Electricians? Plumbers?

All potentially putting people in danger and breaking the law. After all, what is wrong with the plumber saying they are CORGI registered even if they are not, eh?

On another level, it encourages a workforce of liars who do not have the knowledge or ability to do the job. The entire professional world dumbs down. The economy suffers.

And, of course, the rat race simply changes from the best and brightest to who can tell the biggest (or the most) lies in their job application.”

dang! SparkleBabe, you've just been OWNED!!! lol

Saigo, are you by any chance one of SurAlan's interview henchmen? if not, you should be! lol

Funky Mango

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by soulmate61:
“Clare Balding last week(?) on BBC2 10pm immediately said Lee was an undiagnosed dyslexic. The way Lee misspelled, not misspelling phonetically, but the way the letters are jumbled up in the wrong sequence, is I believe the dead giveaway of dyslexics. The views of those who really know are of course welcome.”

I'm not an expert, but my mother is. She's a special needs teacher, with a particular interest and training in dyslexia. She was annoyed by Clare Balding's comment, as she could see no grounds in the small sample of Lee's text for saying that he had dyslexia. The type of letter-jumbling you get in dyslexia is swapping b for d, p for q etc.

In any event, whether Lee has dyslexia is not, it would have been simple enough for him to run his application form through a spellchecker. I find it difficult to believe that anyone wouldn't take such a routine step.
Last edited by Funky Mango : 12-06-2008 at 15:51

ShiftyDundee

12-06-2008

Does being dyslexic mean you can't use a spell checker

For the record, not 'everyone' lies on their CV. I haven't.

Marmite Baby

12-06-2008

I wonder if Lee is a dyscalculiac as well.

welwynrose

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by xe2a2:
“I never insinuated that he was but the attitude here seems to be what is the point of hard work and grafting if you can just lie your way through life with no repercussions?

It's not exactly setting a good example to people is it? But then I suppose the business world never has.”

I've got nothing against hard work & grafting and I don't think people should lie on their CV BUT he was never going to get offered this particular job over anyone else purely on the fact the he said he attended a catering course for two years that he didn't complete - he was exactly applying for a head chef's position

Funky Mango

12-06-2008

You never know what on your CV is going to be significant...my brother once got an interview because he'd had a summer holiday job in a ship's chandler's, while at university. The interviewer thought that would be more interesting to talk about than yet another bar job. My brother got the job!

soulmate61

12-06-2008

Lee's lie has become a cause celebre now, dividing the nation. More answers are really needed to put this issue to bed, give it closure.

(1) His spelling was grotesque, not sloppy or poorly schooled. Does he not know his spelling undermines his employment appeal? Has he never learnt to use Spellchecker? Or does he not send emails at all in his various selling jobs where he so obviously excelled in charming customers?

(2) When was the previous time he sent out a CV? Does he do it only once in 5 years and so never really learnt to present himself? Did he pay another dyslexic person to compose his CV, lol?

xe2a2

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by welwynrose:
“I've got nothing against hard work & grafting and I don't think people should lie on their CV BUT he was never going to get offered this particular job over anyone else purely on the fact the he said he attended a catering course for two years that he didn't complete - he was exactly applying for a head chef's position”

He was the best of the four, I'm not going to deny that. I would've picked him over any others of the final four because he wasn't as sneaky or aggressive as the others, I just think some of the arguments here completely defending what he did like "everyone lies on their CV" are a bit OTT.

Saigo

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by welwynrose:
“not if he started work at 16 or 18 he would have been working at least 12 years by now - I know that after my first couple of jobs no one really cared about my exam results they were more interested in my work history”

But the jobs you go for at 16 or 18 years old are very different to the carrer path you put yourself on later. All it gives is practice on getting up in the morning and recieving a paycheck.

Real, relevant experience is what counts. If that is limited, an employer wants to see some educational achievements to balance it out. Otherwise you could well get a "come back in 10 years". Especially for a highly paid management position.

There are always exceptions though.

soulmate61

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by Funky Mango:
“I'm not an expert, but my mother is. She's a special needs teacher, with a particular interest and training in dyslexia. She was annoyed by Clare Balding's comment, as she could see no grounds in the small sample of Lee's text for saying that he had dyslexia. The type of letter-jumbling you get in dyslexia is swapping b for d, p for q etc.

In any event, whether Lee has dyslexia is not, it would have been simple enough for him to run his application form through a spellchecker. I find it difficult to believe that anyone wouldn't take such a routine step.”

Thanks Funky Mango, this is new info for me, I shall read up on it. I shall also email Clare Balding and discuss it with her.

I rarely misspell though at times I mistype, but in a recent visual perception speed test I have been known to mistake p & q, d & b, a few times when I never thought I would.

soulmate61

12-06-2008

http://www.dyslexia.com/qasymptoms.htm#d990201

Quote:
“There is no single pattern of difficulty that affects all dyslexic people. A dyslexic person might have any of the following problems:

She might see some letters as backwards or upside down;

She might see text appearing to jump around on a page;

She might not be able to tell the difference between letters that look similar in shape such as o and e and c ;

She might not be able to tell the difference between letters that have similar shape but different orientation, such as b and p and d and q ;

The letters might look all jumbled up and out of order;

The letters and words might look all bunched together;

The letters of some words might appear completely backwards, such as the word bird looking like drib ;

The letters and words might look o.k., but the dyslexic person might get a severe headache or feel sick to her stomach every time she tries to read;

She might see the letters o.k., but not be able to sound out words -- that is, not be able to connect the letters to the sounds they make and understand them;

She might be able to connect the letters and sound out words, but not recognize words she has seen before, no matter how many times she has seen them -- each time she would have to start fresh;

She might be able to read the words o.k. but not be able to make sense of or remember what she reads, so that she finds herself coming back to read the same passage over and over again.

A dyslexic person could have any of the above symptoms -- or none ! It is possible for a dyslexic person to be able to read very well, yet find it extremely difficult or impossible to write or spell . Sometimes the writing problem is called 'dysgraphia' instead of 'dyslexia' - but we find that often these symptoms stem from the same underlying causes as dyslexia.

It is important to understand that when a dyslexic person *sees* letters or words reversed or mixed up, there is usually nothing wrong with her eyes. The problem is in the way the mind interprets what the eyes see -- like an optical illusion, except this mismatch between what illusion and reality happens with ordinary print on a page.”

sebright

12-06-2008

What's wrong with lying on your CV? Well, let's put aside the fact that it's dishonest, and concentrate on the fact that this wasn't just the application form for any old job, but for one that would be featured on national TV. Didn't it occur to him that the candidates' claims would be checked?

I think it showed him up as not only dishonest, but stupid.

But SAS obviously has no problems with a thick candidate, so he got the apprentice he deserved.

welwynrose

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by Saigo:
“But the jobs you go for at 16 or 18 years old are very different to the carrer path you put yourself on later. All it gives is practice on getting up in the morning and recieving a paycheck.

Real, relevant experience is what counts. If that is limited, an employer wants to see some educational achievements to balance it out. Otherwise you could well get a "come back in 10 years". Especially for a highly paid management position.

There are always exceptions though.”

not for everyone - I started working in an office & I'm still working in an office albiet in a much more senior position & I've done that but working my way up - one of my bosses started here at 16 as the office junior and is still here 32 year later as the most senior & highest paid employee

soulmate61

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by sebright:
“.... this wasn't just the application form for any old job, but for one that would be featured on national TV. Didn't it occur to him that the candidates' claims would be checked?
”

Katie last year never really wanted the job, although she swore blind on tele she did. Michael was in the audience last night smiling at SAS, having tainted this national programme with sordid scandal. These 16 candidates were supposed to be the cream from 20,000 applicants. You would have thought Amstrad could afford a CV reference check before selecting the final 16.

The truth is The Apprentice is headed towards Big Brother -- the circus of the grotesque. Controversy and scandal up to a point appear to be good television.

neenaw

12-06-2008

LOL! Get some perspective!

He lied about the length of time he was in education. He still still said he left the college with NO QUALIFICATIONS.

With or without that lie on his CV he was still the best candidate for the job. Why should SAS care what crappy course he did once upon a time that has no relevance to his successful career that he has had since then?

Sir Alan is not stupid. All those CVs will have been checked before they picked the people for the show. Obviously Lee had a strong enough background even with this lie to make the show.

Seriously I don't understand all this boo-hooing about the lie. Is it jealousy or something?

And as for your first point "I assume you are not an employer then" - SAS is! A very successful one at that.

Saigo

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by welwynrose:
“not for everyone - I started working in an office & I'm still working in an office albiet in a much more senior position & I've done that but working my way up - one of my bosses started here at 16 as the office junior and is still here 32 year later as the most senior & highest paid employee”

Hence my remark about exceptions.

neenaw

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by sebright:
“What's wrong with lying on your CV? Well, let's put aside the fact that it's dishonest, and concentrate on the fact that this wasn't just the application form for any old job, but for one that would be featured on national TV. Didn't it occur to him that the candidates' claims would be checked?

I think it showed him up as not only dishonest, but stupid.

But SAS obviously has no problems with a thick candidate, so he got the apprentice he deserved.”

Lee was very stupid with lying yes. Especially since it was completely unnecessary and made him look no better for it (even if it wasn't found out).

He's thick? Well he's smart enough to have got himself a £78k job before the Apprentice and smart enough to have then won the Apprentice. I wish I was that "thick"

Saigo

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by neenaw:
“Seriously I don't understand all this boo-hooing about the lie. Is it jealousy or something?”

I doubt it.

Quote:
“And as for your first point "I assume you are not an employer then" - SAS is! A very successful one at that.”

And he made it quite clear that he wasn't happy about Lee lying on his CV. Just as any employer would be unhappy.

Unfortunately he still employs him, which sends the wrong message.

neenaw

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by soulmate61:
“You would have thought Amstrad could afford a CV reference check before selecting the final 16. ”

Of course they checked the CVs! Are you that naive? SAS will have known about this lie on his CV before the show even started. Gosh, some people..

Saigo

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by neenaw:
“He's thick? Well he's smart enough to have got himself a £78k job before the Apprentice and smart enough to have then won the Apprentice. I wish I was that "thick" ”

A) The 78k probably isn't true.

B) I don't think you need to be clever at all to win the Apprentice. They are some of the thickest people I have ever seen in a so-called 'business' context. Did you see the Weakest Link the other day?! Clever?!?!

They may like to sell fish and go shopping in markets and claim they are "project managing" but they barely have a grain of common sense or intelligence among them.

The whole series is simply a demonstration of the dumbing down that this country embraces. These lot were the best of 20000 business professionals?

Good God.

vidalia

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by neenaw:
“Of course they checked the CVs! Are you that naive? SAS will have known about this lie on his CV before the show even started. Gosh, some people..”

Which is why the letter from Thames Valley University was dated August 2007.

sarahcs

12-06-2008

It's what the lie hides that is the problem. I work in education - for child protection there can be no gaps on my CV or employers have to assume I've been in prison.
What had Lee been doing between Month 5 and the end of the 2 years? He claimed to have been at college but this turned out to be untrue. So what had he actually been doing? Once this has been established the employer can decide how important the lie is. Eg: sitting on the sofa watching Jerry Springer: ok. Prison: not ok.

neenaw

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by Saigo:
“And he made it quite clear that he wasn't happy about Lee lying on his CV. Just as any employer would be unhappy.

Unfortunately he still employs him, which sends the wrong message.”

Of course an employer wouldn't be happy, but when it's a stupid irrelevent lie then employers are usually bright enough to realise it shouldn't detract from the mass of other achievements on the CV.

If he had lied about something important then it would have been a different story.

Sweet FA

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by sarahcs:
“It's what the lie hides that is the problem. I work in education - for child protection there can be no gaps on my CV or employers have to assume I've been in prison.
What had Lee been doing between Month 5 and the end of the 2 years? He claimed to have been at college but this turned out to be untrue. So what had he actually been doing?”

Well seeing as he's wasn't applying for a job involving children, it doesn't really matter that much.

But to answer your question, he was probably unemployed or doing a job he's not particulary proud of.

neenaw

12-06-2008

Originally Posted by Saigo:
“A) The 78k probably isn't true.”

It will have been checked.

Originally Posted by Saigo:
“B) I don't think you need to be clever at all to win the Apprentice. They are some of the thickest people I have ever seen in a so-called 'business' context. Did you see the Weakest Link the other day?! Clever?!?!

They may like to sell fish and go shopping in markets and claim they are "project managing" but they barely have a grain of common sense or intelligence among them.

The whole series is simply a demonstration of the dumbing down that this country embraces. These lot were the best of 20000 business professionals?

Good God.”

You know, I have a first class honours degree, currently studying for a masters and putting together a PhD application. I don't rank myself as "clever" though - I'm just good at what I do. I'd probably fail miserably at the Weakest Link. *shrugs*

Lee is incredibly good at business. He has a mass of enthusiasm and a fantastic imagination for business ideas.

Some of the top business people today are school drop outs but so what? It means nothing other than they weren't good in an academic setting. Calling such successful people "thick" is either academic snobbery or jealousy - but probably a mixture of both.

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