I've always thought that the one off payment statement traditionally used to promote DTT muddied the waters somewhat. No-one talks about a one off payment when you buy a TV or a VCR, the statement makes it sound like an up front fee. It's not, it's the cost of buying the equipment. Using subscription is even worse due to its associations with payment and commitment.

Would it not be fair to say that relying on the TV to upscale a signal coming from a SCART will not be as good as one outputted via HDMI?

The TV will have to rely on the analogue signal from the SCART so adds a DA/AD conversion pair to the path. That said the upscaling in the TV is likely to be better matched to the actual display technology used and since the TV will normally be a higher value item you would expect better quality upscaling.

The upshot is no-one can say for sure but in most cases the TV is likely to do a better job. Consequently an HDMI out on any SD device is mostly pointless unless you have a dodgy TV upscaler or a requrement for an all digital path (e.g. a digital media switcher). All you can normally say for it is that it adds flexibility to your connection options so it's not a bad thing, just not necessarily a good thing either.

If you can output Freeview at its native resolution via HDMI the TV can still do the up-scaling which as you suggest is usually the preferred solution. Bypassing the AD/DA conversion should usually be a positive thing although I have no idea how much the conversion negatively impacts the picture quality if at all.
I’d be interested to hear from Topfield users that have upgraded to the HDMI box to see if they’ve noticed improved picture quality. Of course there are too many other variables to be able to get a clear picture of the situation but some subjective reports are a useful starting point.

Hi

D/A A/D conversations don't make that much difference, i.e. they don't degrade the quality as much as we may think or the marketing of all digital equipment have us believe. Just look at the average TFT monitor attached via analogue VGA and notice the perfect pixel to pixel mapping, this is despite a digital to analogue then back again conversation. I can't see the difference between DVI all digital) and VGA on the two monitors I'm looking at.

I've taken the digital data direct from a Freeview transmission onto a DVD without any re-encoding then played that back via HDMI to the TV and there really isn't a lot in it compared to the RGB feed from the Humax.

Most modern HD Ready TVs will be showing you an all digital connection anyway via the internal Freeview tuner, and if you can't see much difference between that and the Humax now, you have your answer.

Regards

Phil

£158.90 is the price of the 9300 at Martin Dawes

http://www.martindawes.net/ProductDe...language=en-GB

I have to say that I am very tempted especially with the larger hard drive. My Digifusion 200 only has an 80gig hard drive. I sometimes wonder I how cope.
Last edited by Markynotts : 11-07-2008 at 07:50

I have 2 identical lcd monitors on my pc one is dvi (connected) and the other is vga (analogue). I defy anyone to tell which is which. Running photoshop and the same picture on each the picture is identical even at high magnification. On my Bravia TV component (analogue) pictures often look better than hdmi at the same resolution. The x box 360 is significantly better over component. So in my experience digital hdmi is not always better. Best advice is try all the alternatives.

What resolution are your screens running at? I’ve seen it suggested that higher resolutions are more prone to degradation over VGA but don’t know if it’s true.

My HP 20” TFT (1680x1050) looks similar whether connected via DVI or VGA but I have also seen a VGA connection looking significantly worse due to the poor quality of the VGA output of the laptop. I suspect that a DVI output could well be more consistent in video quality than VGA and I remember in the past when cheap VGA cards were frowned upon because the image quality was weak; poor quality DACs and electronics I suppose.


I’m only interested in Freeview quality so I’m wondering if you’ve been able to compare a Freeview box that has HDMI as well as analogue connections.


I agree but unfortunately that doesn’t help at all at the purchasing stage as it’s almost impossible to try out the exact combinations that interest especially if you’re considering Sky or VM boxes.

PC screen settings are 1280 x 1024 32 bit (the highest the monitors support)

I don't have a pvr with HDMI out but have seen a test of the new Toppy that slates the HDMI out stating that any reasonable TV will make a better job of the upscaling.

I can however offer the following observations.

The viewing device for all the following is a Sony Bravia kdlV40w4000 1080p tV

TV sources all SD

TV built in Freeview Tuner
Sky Digibox with Freesat Card
Virgin Cable Box
Topfield 5800pvr
Humax 9200T pvr.

The sky digibox and the virgin cable box are local to the tv and connected to RGB scart.

The remaining equipment is about 7m from the rack in which the other equipment is mounted. Other than RF the two are connected by a 7m HDMI and a component cable (which is not used for this - more later), and a stereo RCA cable used to pass tv and the virgin /sky box audio back to the AV amp (denon avr4306). Two of the component cables are used to send the tv audio/video output to a uhf modulator that is connected to a kitchen tv so any source local to the TV that is being watched can be viewed on the kitchen TV. THe 3rd conductor passes sp/dif surround sound via a optical to coax converter to the AV amp.

The denon amp supports upscaling to 1080i to the hdmi output (sadly not to component) for any of the normal inputs. It also has seperate zone outputs zone 2 video and audio and zone 3 audio only. zone 2 is connected to a second uhf modulator sent via the same coax the kitchen tv. This allows the viewing of any connected video source (including the Denon DVD player) independently on the kitchen tv. (saves many an argument). zone 3 is connected to a pair of Senheiser radio heasdphones.

The denon amp has 3 hdmi inputs that pass through HD (up to 1080p) to the single output connected to the TV. One of these inputs is connected to a Denon 1920 DVD player set to upscale to 1080i from SD and a second to a HDMI to DVI converter cable

As the amp does not have RGB inputs the Toppy and the Hummy are connected by component and upscaled to 1080i to the hdmi output. (The hummy has a RGB/component converter).

Picture quality from a good broadcast is superb on both the hummy and the toppy.

Picture quality from the TV tuner, and the SKY and virgin boxes is similar with the tv just having the edge. All are markedly inferior to the Denon upscaled output. Guess that shows the better performance of the faroughda upscalers in the amp and dvd player (which also gives superb pictures).

My laptop set to 1280 x 768 60hz can be connected directly to the tv via a dvi/vga adaptor (therefore analogue) or via the Denon using the DVI to hdmi cable (digital). Picture quality looks the same for each connection. I have tried this with a 1080P quicktime slide show created from Premiere Pro and both connections give equally good results. My laptop struggles to cope with the moving slide transitions but is fine with the static pictures.

The TV has a usb connection for HD display of jpg files and a usb pen drive loaded with 1920 x 1080 jpegs give breathtaking results via this connection by far the best pictures I have seen bettering that of a blue ray player at 1080p (My sons)

Does the Toppy support output via HDMI at the native Freeview resolution? I’m not necessarily expecting a Freeview PVR with HDMI to have better upscaling than a HD TV but it would be interesting to see if the TV looks better when upscaling the HDMI signal input at 576i compared with an RGB SCART feed.

Interesting. Did you compare outputting the signal from the DVD player at SD and HD resolutions to see if the TV’s upscaler was noticeably better?



True, but it’s very hard to demo the exact setup that you’re interested in so you can usually only test this after you’ve made the purchase.

Hi


Yes, from a Pioneer DVD with built in upscaler. The best most pleasing and clearest picture is always by allowing the TV to do the upscaling when ever I have tested on mine and friends TVs. This is because it saves two scaling processes from degrading the picture and leaves just the one in the TV that in one pass will scale to the exact requirements of the panel. The picture from SD sources is so lacking in any real detail to start with that no upscaler can really make much of an improvement and you don't need any complicated upscaling as it makes little difference. The best upscaler is the human brain, which is why when you sit back and watch you see detail that isn't really there when you look at the screen close up.

Upscaling DVD players and the like are just playing a marketing game, they don't improve the picture in any great way. As an example a friend was convinced their upgrading to an upscaling HDMI DVD player made it really seem like high definition and the improvement over their old one was staggering I was told, the wife didn't see it neither did I. The fact he had it connected by both HDMI and SCART with the TV defaulting to SCART, so he wasn't watching the picture upscaled by the DVD player proved the point When we switch to HDMI proper you couldn't see a major difference either.

Some people believe anything, the £250 network cable sort of proves it to me http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/205620/t...net-cable.html.

Regards

Phil

Price is now £199.

.

Just a small query regarding this machine (or Humax's in general).

Do Humax's provide the ability for the EPG to display upcoming programs for a single channel in a list view.

I have got to the point where I will not purchase any product that only provides a "sky-like" EPG. I find it extremely cumbersome to view multiple channel program listings with half the program names shortened or not displayed at all due to program running time.

regards

skoom

.

Humax use the standard Freeview EPG which is 'SKY like' as you put it,but only gives you 5 channels in view at one time.(Thats what the 9200T is like,so not sure about the 9300T).
Personally I prefer the EPG as it is and dont like the single channel list.
Im not aware of any PVR that can do what you ask so it looks like you may not be buying any PVR on the market, but maybe someone else will know different.

My last two machines had this feature (Thomson DHD4000 and my current one the inverto 7000T). I find the channel grid view so cumbersome that I would rather stick with my current limited disk size/features than upgrade to a new machine.

Again just my personal preference, but for the sake of a EPG software feature that has been used in the past, no PVR manufacturer will get my business again.

I realise there are many others who may prefer the "sky-like" EPG, but I prefer to browse the EPG at the start of the night and see what is on on a channel-by-channel basis.

This way I get to see the whole program name (my biggest gripe with the sky EPG). I can also see what is on for the next 5, 6 or 7 odd hours on each channel, not just the next 2 hours with the sky EPG.

(It looks like the Topfield can provide this feature via a TAP, so it seems like this is where my cash will end up going).

Surely I cannot be alone in my dislike of the sky EPG?

.

I use a TV guide (Radio Times) to determine what’s on and typically just use the EPG to make reservations. If I was using the EPG to determine what’s on TV your preferred method might well appeal.

Topfield TF 5800 provides this facility.

The Technotrend (Tevion and Technosonic brands from Aldi) PVRs provided this facility. I have one of these as a back-up and use this "List" view exclusively. However, these units are not being made anymore and the units have issues which would rule them out for most users. Similarly the old Thomson DHD4000 also provided this feature.

I believe one or more of the more obscure makes provide this too but I can't remember which at the moment.

Alternatively a PVR (such as the Vestel units) on which the EPG is "expandable" solves the problem of shortened programme titles.

Colin
Last edited by creddish : 13-07-2008 at 11:58

Panasonic DVD recorders, including those with Hard Disc, have 'Landscape' and 'Portrait' views. I find the portrait view, which shows the programmes (with their full titles) for a few hours ahead very useful at times. You scroll left/right to the next channel's line-up.

My favourite EPG, however, is that on the Thomson DTI1000 and related boxes (the Freeview EPG, not the Teletext one). Although it is a 'Sky'-type EPG and only shows part of most programme names, you still have the (small) picture and sound of the programme you are viewing and the detailed programme information of whatever programme you have highlighted. I am not needing any new equipment at present but when it is time, the EPG will be a factor in making the decision.

My Panasonic TV does the same; I always use the guide in 'portrait' view. Presumably if they made a PVR it would have this feature too.

Same here although I wish they'd get rid of the PiG so we could have more channels visible at once.


I used to own an Inverto and it was primarily channel centric and annoyed me.

It's probably mostly personal preference but I find that I have little or no interest in the channel anyway these days. I also have no interest in time though since I time shift everything.

What I probably need is a category view with a filter I can customise. I think I'll be waiting a long time for that though. DigiGuide coupled with HD VoD would be pretty close

I expect there are TAPs for the Topfields to achieve just that.

I did look at the Topfield but it seemed like so much work that if I went that route I might as well stick tuners in my Server and use that to record.

The real problem with the Toppy or the PC solution though is that it isn't Sky. Maybe in a year or so FreeSat will be good enough to make it worthwhile (especially if HD content ramps up) but right now Sky is my primary TV source.

I do quite like the idea of my Server as a media recording PC though. I just have to run cables round the house from the spare LNBs. A future DIY project

MeiSearch is probably the TAP you'd want. Browse the EPG by genre and keyword amongst other things.

The Topfield can be a bit of work to get set up, but apparently it's nothing compared to getting a MythTV box running (and continuing to run) smoothly.

BTW, bravo to Humax getting the standby power consumption down to less than 1W on this new model.

I'm going to have to get this new humax box i glad i waited and didn't just go for the 9200T models