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Old 19-08-2008, 11:28
steven123
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I currently use an Eltax Nova DVD 5.1 System with Dolby Digital and DTS from it’s on board DVD drive only and Dolby Pro-Logic 2 from external sources. However unfortunately the DVD became intermittent at recognising DVD discs, often displaying no disc, a lens cleaner didn’t help. I have the DVD system connected to my Sony TV (28in Widescreen CRT) which feeds stereo audio (phono connection) from my games consoles, Sky+ and DVD recorder to the system to upmix to Dolby pro-Logic 2 which sounds very good. However, with consoles, TV, DVD, Blu-Ray etc supporting DD and DTS I feel I am missing out. I am considering keeping the speakers (compact, well built and have plenty of power) but changing the DVD unit for a dedicated amplifier.

Budget is limited (ideally under £100, possibly a little over for something really good) so to get something decent, I imagine I need to go the second hand route?

The high-end Sony kit (even from some years ago) does look impressive. I have been looking at some Sony STR-DB940 amps on eBay that have all I need; multiple digital (optical) inputs, DD and DTS, plenty of power (100W per channel), plenty of analogue inputs. (http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/receiver/sony-str-db940/316489)

I like the ability to pipe video through the amplifier too so everything can be controlled by the amplifier instead of the separate Scart switcher I currently use. The only thing I am aware of with the DB940 is that it seems to been around a long time meaning second hand units may be past their best or do amps age better than most devices?

So does anyone have any other recommendations for a good amp that would meet my needs (and budget)? I have a local Richer Sounds so would be ideal if they had something suitable but other than that looking for something I can buy online.

One more thing; whilst I am happy with the speakers the Eltax came with I have two very large HiFi speakers from my Aiwa HiFi, currently not in use that would provide a stunning front soundstage if I could wire them up. The problem is in addition to the standard speaker wire they have a phono connection that I imagine powers their internal sub-woofer, which I am not sure would connect to a home cinema amp?
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Old 19-08-2008, 12:29
RobAnt
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On the whole, yes, older amps can sound better as they get older. The only thing you have to watch for are faults - but most can be easily repaired these days. Amps also need warm-up time so putting them on standby, rather than turning them off after use, keeps the components a little warmer, ready to play.

But the thing about amps is you really have to listen to them in conjunction with your own speeakers and source equipment to decide whether or not you like their tonal characteristics. Some can sound harder or harsher, while others may have a softer or whispier quality, with many others anywhere in between.

So I'm not going to say yes, definitely buy that Sony, or no don't buy that Sony. It really is very much a personal choice. But the Sony would appear to be a quality product. punching well above it's price level, so I couldn't rule it out completely.
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Old 19-08-2008, 13:00
Deacon1972
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With the equipment you have listed you would be better off keeping the audio and video separate - using the receiver to video switch your equipment would mean you using inferior video signals, namely composite, the reason being av receivers don't normally come with scart connections, the line up is normally, composite, s-video, component and HDMI. Far better to keep the scart (RGB) where possible.

This would make it far easier for you to concentrate on the audio and find something very reasonable for your budget, though you would need to buy a DVD player, but these seem to be two a penny these days so it wouldn't break the bank.

Example - The Yamaha RXV361 from RS is a capable unit, it has the digital connections you require, you would get DD5.1 from Sky+ and DD5.1/DTS from an external DVD player that was DD5.1/DTS compatible. You would also be able to connect your recorder/console via analogue inputs giving you DPL.

There are a few receivers in this price range (£120) if you want brand new, by all means look at the second hand/ex demo units, you can get some real bargains.
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Old 19-08-2008, 13:48
steven123
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Thanks for the replies. Seeing how cheap amps have become even new I seriously am thinking of upping the budget to £120 and buying a brand new unit from Richer Sounds. The 5-year cover option also seems like good value and much more peace of mind than eBay.

I already have a Panasonic DVD recorder that has optical and co-ax outputs as well as X Box 360 and PS2 that can double as DVD players.

The Yamaha RXV361 looks fine; has everything I would need in an amp and probably more power than my speakers/room could handle but its always good to have a bit to spare. In addition, would the six channel analogue input of the Yamaha allow me to hook up my PC? (not essential but nice to have).

The sticking point now is I have noticed the Sony STRDG710 Silver at Richer Sounds at the same price and with 6.1 and HDMI. I know I would have to find another speaker for 6.1 and the HDMI would be useless until I get a new set but if it’s as good as the Yamaha on all other counts then I can’t see any reason not to have the extra features. Though I suspect I am missing something, as it is rare for Sony kit to undercut any other brand.
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Old 19-08-2008, 14:08
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The 6 channel inputs are primarily designed so you can hook up external equipment that has 6channel outputs, this is so you can use the receivers onboard decoding for DD5.1/DTS, so long as the PC has the appropriate outputs then I don't see why it shouldn't work.

You'll find the Yamaha and Sony receivers are discontinued products, this is why they can be knocked out as cheap as possible.

The Sony is good value for money and will give you certain future proofing over the Yamaha.

The 6th speaker is optional, you don't need it to run the system, it will still operate in 5.1 mode, though having the surround back speaker can give a better sound stage at the back if you have the room, if you do, then you will benefit from the DVD's that support Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES which are quite a few, you can even play standard 5.1 discs which on occasions can sound better running through a 6 speaker system.
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Old 19-08-2008, 15:36
steven123
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That Sony unit does seem ideal. However what would really round it off nicely is if I could use my two large HiFi speakers as front left and right thus freeing two of the Eltax speakers, one of which I can use for the 6.1. However, I am not sure whether the connectors are standard or custom to my Aiwa HiFi (NSX-T7). Each speaker has a phono plug that is labelled (on HiFi back) as high frequency and standard speaker wire that connects to spring clips labelled low frequency.

My existing Eltax DVD system has a phono socket for an active sub-woofer; is that what these speakers have and if so can I get an amp that would provide two of these for both my HiFi speakers?

Also on the front of the speakers, it says they have built-in powered sub-woofer. I have included images of the speakers below that (I hope) will allow you to identify them and advise whether I can use them in my surround sound set up.


http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...ckuk/cable.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...PICT0037-1.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...k/PICT0056.jpg
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Old 19-08-2008, 15:51
chrisjr
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That Aiwa thing is not a HiFi - or at least not anything I would call a HiFi

Forget about using the Aiwa speakers. Sounds like they are somewhat speciallised and only really compatible with your Aiwa stereo unit. From you description it sounds like the speakers have separate high and low range drive units which are wired out separately and powered by separate amplifier stages in the stereo.

So you would need separate amplification for the high and low ranges and a suitable crossover unit (splits the full frequency range to send the appropriate band to each speaker) to enable you to use the Aiwa speakers. So I doubt you will be able to hook them up to your new amp in any way that will make an acceptable noise out of them anyway.

Many speakers have separate high and low range drive units but are fed from a single amplifier. the crossover sits inside the speaker box and splits the signal internally to the two drive units. Looks like the Aiwa does it all externally for some reason.

On the other hand....

The "high frequency" input could be not so high and the low frequency input the sub part. One way to test this would be to connect only one at a time and listen to what sounds come out of it. If all you can hear is the crash of symbols and not a lot else with the high frequency connected then it is a true high/low set-up and you might not be able to use it.

However if you get some mid and moderate low range sounds then you might be able to make something of it. Especially if you just get really low range sounds with just the Low frequency connection.

If you do get a near full range sound from the high connection then you could chop the phono off, bare the ends and connect to the front left and right terminals of the amp. then connect BOTH low connections to the sub output of the amp. The thing you will have to check though is what impedance the speakers are and what the amp can drive. If you wire the two speakers in parallel you halve the impedance, so if they are 8ohm speakers the amp sees 4 ohms. So you need to make sure it is happy with that impedance.

You could though wire the low speaker connections in series. ie take the -ve wire of the right speaker and connect to the -ve sub terminal of the amp. Join the +ve wire of the right speaker to the -ve wire of the left speaker and connect the +ve wire of the left speaker to the amps +ve sub terminal. That will effectively double the impedance but will probably present a freindlier load to the amp.

Last edited by chrisjr : 19-08-2008 at 16:02. Reason: Had another thought...
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Old 19-08-2008, 17:15
steven123
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hmm I think I will stick with the existing speakers; much as i would like to get the HiFi ones working because its a shame to have them just stored away doing nothing (I don't really have enough room to have a surround system and seperate HiFi set up) I would be terrified of blowing up my brand new amp if it didn't like my wiring.

Anyway I called my local Richer Sounds and unfortunately they sold out of the Sony weeks ago but they do have the Yamaha RXV361 and a Cambridge Audio 540R Version 1.0. I was offered at £145.00 which I could stretch to if its a better unit? It did seem to have better connectivity, I was told it has 4 optical, 4 Co-ax and 4 phono though slightly less powerful at 80W per channel. Anyway they agreed to reserve both amps for me so I can decide tommorrow which one I want.

Any thoughts on this alternative Cambridge Audio unit?
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Old 19-08-2008, 17:29
Deacon1972
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hmm I think I will stick with the existing speakers; much as i would like to get the HiFi ones working because its a shame to have them just stored away doing nothing (I don't really have enough room to have a surround system and seperate HiFi set up) I would be terrified of blowing up my brand new amp if it didn't like my wiring.

Anyway I called my local Richer Sounds and unfortunately they sold out of the Sony weeks ago but they do have the Yamaha RXV361 and a Cambridge Audio 540R Version 1.0. I was offered at £145.00 which I could stretch to if its a better unit? It did seem to have better connectivity, I was told it has 4 optical, 4 Co-ax and 4 phono though slightly less powerful at 80W per channel. Anyway they agreed to reserve both amps for me so I can decide tommorrow which one I want.

Any thoughts on this alternative Cambridge Audio unit?
You wouldn't need two separate systems, home cinema amps/receivers are just as capable at playing both music and movies, they can be set to play stereo as well as multichannel audio.

Not heard the Cambridge unit but have seen owners comments posted here and they have nothing but praise for them. When you go tomorrow ask for a demo so you can hear both, you will then be in a better position to make a decision. If they can't offer a demo RS are pretty good where they will let you take the unit back if you are not happy with it.
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Old 19-08-2008, 19:37
steven123
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From what I have been able to find out online the Cambridge Audio 540R V1 seems to be ideal as it has by far the most future expandability with HDMI and component for video meaning it won't be left behind when I eventually get a HD TV set. Also with four co-ax and four optical ports it has more inputs than I could ever use.

The only slight concern is that it is only rated at 50 watts per channel, which seems low compared to figures like 80-100 watts on rival amps. In fact, according to the instructions my Eltax Nova DVD surround system already gives me 50 watts per channel though that is music power, is that different to the rating on the Cambridge Audio amp?

Also the person I spoke to at richer sounds said that Cambridge were realistic with their ratings where as most manufacturers were optimistic.

I hope I am worrying unnecessarily about wattage as in every other regard the Cambridge looks ideal.
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Old 19-08-2008, 20:22
Deacon1972
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From what I have been able to find out online the Cambridge Audio 540R V1 seems to be ideal as it has by far the most future expandability with HDMI and component for video meaning it won't be left behind when I eventually get a HD TV set. Also with four co-ax and four optical ports it has more inputs than I could ever use.

The only slight concern is that it is only rated at 50 watts per channel, which seems low compared to figures like 80-100 watts on rival amps. In fact, according to the instructions my Eltax Nova DVD surround system already gives me 50 watts per channel though that is music power, is that different to the rating on the Cambridge Audio amp?

Also the person I spoke to at richer sounds said that Cambridge were realistic with their ratings where as most manufacturers were optimistic.

I hope I am worrying unnecessarily about wattage as in every other regard the Cambridge looks ideal.
Are you sure it's the 540 because as far as I can see all versions have been 80watts, the 340 is quoted as being 50watts. Also the 540 V1 doesn't have HDMI.

http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...B-AZUR540R-SIL

http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...=CAMB-340R-SIL

In reference to the power output, RS are probably correct in respect to those being optimistic and realistic, the Eltax will be optimistic whereas the Cambridge will be realistic.

If it turns out to be the 340, a realistic 50watts will be ample for the average size living room.
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Old 19-08-2008, 20:37
steven123
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Are you sure it's the 540 because as far as I can see all versions have been 80watts, the 340 is quoted as being 50watts.

In reference to the power output, RS are probably correct in respect to those being optimistic and realistic, the Eltax will be optimistic whereas the Cambridge will be realistic.

If it turns out to be the 340, a realistic 50watts will be ample for the average size living room.
Yes, my mistake I was looking at the 340, where as the one RS offered was the 540R, which is at least 80 watts, some say 100 watts, just read a superb review of the 540R (http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...?reviewid=4344), as I was leaning towards it anyway I think it's just tipped the balance in favour of it though RS kindly offered to demo the Yamaha and the Cambridge anyway.

Just hope the existing speakers can do the amp justice, if not these Yamaha's seem reasonable and decent(http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...id=YAMA-NSP110) though I can't afford both at once so I'll have to see how the amp does with the existing speakers first.
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Old 19-08-2008, 20:56
steven123
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However if you get some mid and moderate low range sounds then you might be able to make something of it. Especially if you just get really low range sounds with just the Low frequency connection.

If you do get a near full range sound from the high connection then you could chop the phono off, bare the ends and connect to the front left and right terminals of the amp. then connect BOTH low connections to the sub output of the amp. The thing you will have to check though is what impedance the speakers are and what the amp can drive. If you wire the two speakers in parallel you halve the impedance, so if they are 8ohm speakers the amp sees 4 ohms. So you need to make sure it is happy with that impedance.

You could though wire the low speaker connections in series. ie take the -ve wire of the right speaker and connect to the -ve sub terminal of the amp. Join the +ve wire of the right speaker to the -ve wire of the left speaker and connect the +ve wire of the left speaker to the amps +ve sub terminal. That will effectively double the impedance but will probably present a freindlier load to the amp.
The HiFi must be getting on for 8-9 years old at least so perhaps the amplification was done differently then i.e. as two seperate stages? Anyway in the (Aiwa HiFi) instructions it actually lists two amplifier sections; a mid-high frequency section and a low frequency section. Mid-high rated at 30 watt per speaker 6ohm and low is 120 watt 6 ohm. Also on the speaker front and in the manual it says the speakers each have a 200mm Subwoofer, 120mm woofer, 60mm tweeter and 20mm super tweeter. Presumably these four parts are what the manual means when it says its four-way but other than that it doesn't mean anything to me though thought I would include it in case it reveals anymore about their (un) suitability?
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Old 19-08-2008, 22:41
chrisjr
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The HiFi must be getting on for 8-9 years old at least so perhaps the amplification was done differently then i.e. as two seperate stages? Anyway in the (Aiwa HiFi) instructions it actually lists two amplifier sections; a mid-high frequency section and a low frequency section. Mid-high rated at 30 watt per speaker 6ohm and low is 120 watt 6 ohm. Also on the speaker front and in the manual it says the speakers each have a 200mm Subwoofer, 120mm woofer, 60mm tweeter and 20mm super tweeter. Presumably these four parts are what the manual means when it says its four-way but other than that it doesn't mean anything to me though thought I would include it in case it reveals anymore about their (un) suitability?
How many more times it is not a HiFi

OK purist rant over

As I see it there are two possible ways it could be wired up. The Low frequency side could include the sub and woofer with the two tweeters connected to the high. But equally the woofer (the 120mm job) could be included with the tweeters since it describes it as Mid-High.

As I say it would be easy to test simply by connecting just the high cable. If you get any mid range and low(ish) frequencies out of it then they may be usable as I described earlier.

But given the speakers are 6ohm you need to be careful about what amp you use. Any amp that is happy with 4ohm as well as the more normal 8ohm speakers will be OK.

But if you do try to wire up the subs then don't connect then in parallel (ie don't twist both +ve and both -ve wires together) use the series connection method.

Oh by the way THIS is a HiFi system...

http://6moons.com/industryfeatures/l...efinitive.html

Errrr no I'm not being entirely serious about that. Some people are way too obsessive about these things for their own good I think - 48 grand for just 44 Watts of noise making!
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Old 19-08-2008, 23:25
steven123
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Thanks, I realise the erm..... stereo unit isn't audiophile kit but then again I am no audiophile. I like to think I know bad sound quality from good i.e. TV speakers versus even a stereo amp, and the difference between stereo and 5.1 but I have no experience at all of the really high end stuff. I found the Aiwa unit was good fun to listen to, those speakers really did have some floor, even house shaking bass which I haven't heard any other system deliver, though I have no doubt an audiophile would positively hate them.

Providing the amp has the necessary ohm rating, I might try connecting those speakers one day if I am feeling extremely brave. One more thing though; would those Aiwa speakers effectively replace the subwoofer or would I still be able to use my usual separate subwoofer with them plugged in?

I suppose to avoid damaging my new amp I could always try plugging them into the DVD system which will be heading for eBay anyway, only issue there is if that system can output enough watts to feed them.
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Old 19-08-2008, 23:30
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How many more times it is not a HiFi
I spent a lot of money (for me) some years ago on my existing A/V system. While it is adequate for playback of film soundtracks it is nowhere near the audiophile quality I appreciate from my thirty year old hi fi system which I have now recently replaced with a ten year old system bought from a fellow audiophile who spent ten times what I gave him for something new and flashy.

One day I will replace my A/V system with something new to cope with more than 5.1 audio and HD video. Can I really expect one of these to match a system dedicated to reproducing music from high quality sources? I suspect not.
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Old 19-08-2008, 23:36
chrisjr
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Providing the amp has the necessary ohm rating, I might try connecting those speakers one day if I am feeling extremely brave. One more thing though; would those Aiwa speakers effectively replace the subwoofer or could I still be able to use my usual separate subwoofer with them plugged in?
It depends on what you get out of them if you connect just the "high" wire. If you get a reasonably full range sound then you have two options.

1/ use only the Aiwa high connection and ignore the low connections. Then use your existing separate sub. Don't connect the Aiwa Low wires to anything.

2/ connect as previously described, left Aiwa speaker high to amp left front, right Aiwa speaker high to amp right front. Wire the two Aiwa low connections in series to the amp sub. Do not connect your separate sub.

Basically use either Aiwa low connections OR the separate sub but not both at the same time. By all means try both options and just pick the one you think sounds best.
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Old 20-08-2008, 06:52
steven123
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It depends on what you get out of them if you connect just the "high" wire. If you get a reasonably full range sound then you have two options.

1/ use only the Aiwa high connection and ignore the low connections. Then use your existing separate sub. Don't connect the Aiwa Low wires to anything.

2/ connect as previously described, left Aiwa speaker high to amp left front, right Aiwa speaker high to amp right front. Wire the two Aiwa low connections in series to the amp sub. Do not connect your separate sub.

Basically use either Aiwa low connections OR the separate sub but not both at the same time. By all means try both options and just pick the one you think sounds best.
Thanks I think I understand now. I assume in number 2 one would not connect both to avoid overloading the amp? In addition, am I right to assume the mid to high wattage (30 watt) is the 'normal' speaker power and the 120 watt low is the sub-woofer power? Assuming this is true it's sub could well be better than my existing (passive) one as that is only 80 watt and I would estimate the speakers would be at least as powerful as the ones I have, possibly a bit more.

Regarding video, it seems that amp offers 3 S video and 2 component ports. This being the case I am seriously considering dropping from RGB to S video as the convenience might outweigh the (hopefully) minor quality difference. Also if I connected devices to the component inputs such as my X Box 360 and PS2 would the amp be clever enough to scale them down and push them through the S video port so my SD TV can display them? I know much/all of the quality benefit would be lost but it would give me another two inputs, which would be handy.
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Old 20-08-2008, 09:12
chrisjr
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Don't be fooled by the raw numbers. There are many factors that go into determining how loud something is. Your 80W sub could actually go louder than the 120W Aiwa speakers. It depends on the efficiency of the speakers, ie how good they are at converting electrical enrgy into acoustic energy.

Also if your amp is only 30W output you won't run either speaker flat out anyway. The wattage of the speaker is simply the maximum you can stuff into them before the speaker cones pop out the front of the cabinet How loud they actually go depends on the amp driving them. Remember the speakers are passive converters of electrical energy into acoustic energy and heat. They don't produce any energy themselves it all comes from the amp.

Also don't run away with the impression that 120W is significantly louder than 80W. It's just under 2dB louder. 1dB is about the smallest change most people can hear so 2dB isn't going to be that big a jump. Because of the way the ear works you would need 800W to double the loudness of your sub. And as I said if the Aiwas are less efficient they will sound quieter anyway even though they can take more power.

And another thing. It may sound counter intuitive but you can potentially cause more damage running a 20W amp into 100W speakers than you could using a 200W amp into the same speakers. At first sight you wouldn't think the 20W amp had enough go to trouble the speakers. However if you crank it up to 11 or 12 in an attempt to emulate an Iron Maiden gig you could easily run it into severe clipping.

This is where the amp runs out of volts from the power supply. The net result is gross distortion but, just as importantly, also lots of potentially harmfull garbage going into the speaker that could blow at least a tweeter or two. A more powerfull amp but much less stressed could actually cause less damage even though theoretically it could blow the speaker cones across the room!
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Old 20-08-2008, 09:33
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Regarding video, it seems that amp offers 3 S video and 2 component ports. This being the case I am seriously considering dropping from RGB to S video as the convenience might outweigh the (hopefully) minor quality difference.
Personally I'd stick with RGB, why sacrifice picture quality for a connection that is inferior and has no auto switching capabilities, you are introducing inconvenience. You will have to manually select the S-video input on the TV every time you want to view Sky/DVD, assuming it these components you are connecting.

Video switching is very useful if the TV has limited connections, it's better that buying a load of different swichboxes, it's not worth using if you going to be dropping down in signal quality.



Also if I connected devices to the component inputs such as my X Box 360 and PS2 would the amp be clever enough to scale them down and push them through the S video port so my SD TV can display them? I know much/all of the quality benefit would be lost but it would give me another two inputs, which would be handy.
The 540/340 do not support video conversion, just basic video switching.

You would need to connect the Xbox/PS2 to the amps component inputs then run another component cable from the amp to the TV. Perfect if the TV only has 1x component input. Forget S-video though.
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Old 20-08-2008, 09:53
steven123
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The 540/340 do not support video conversion, just basic video switching.

You would need to connect the Xbox/PS2 to the amps component inputs then run another component cable from the amp to the TV. Perfect if the TV only has 1x component input. Forget S-video though.
The thing with component is I am not sure if it will work on a standard i.e. SD TV? The TV has RGB Scart but no dedicated component input. I have seen Scart blocks that have the red, green, blue inputs for component but still not sure if 'ordinary' TVs can accept such signals?
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Old 20-08-2008, 10:04
Deacon1972
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The thing with component is I am not sure if it will work on a standard i.e. SD TV? The TV has RGB Scart but no dedicated component input. I have seen Scart blocks that have the red, green, blue inputs for component but still not sure if 'ordinary' TVs can accept such signals?
I don't think is as simple as just adding a scart block, you would need a converter to be able to connect RGB from Sky/DVD to the amp by component.
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Old 20-08-2008, 10:15
steven123
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suspected that might be the case, think I'll keep what I have video wise and use the amp purely for audio, thats its main purpose afterall.
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Old 20-08-2008, 10:21
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suspected that might be the case, think I'll keep what I have video wise and use the amp purely for audio, thats its main purpose afterall.
Good man - keeping the video and audio separate is the best way IMO, especially if the TV can cope with the connections, it's not worth dropping down in sigal quality or adding expensive converters just to use the amp for video switching.

You're going to RS today?
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Old 20-08-2008, 10:30
steven123
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You're going to RS today?
Hopefully getting a lift there this afternoon with a friend if he’s available; I don't have a car and am not at all sure if getting a fully boxed up amp on the bus would be practical, they can be quite huge and weighty; good indication of quality, less good for transporting.
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