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5.1 DD/DTS Amp and Speaker Advice
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chrisjr
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“The thing with component is I am not sure if it will work on a standard i.e. SD TV? The TV has RGB Scart but no dedicated component input. I have seen Scart blocks that have the red, green, blue inputs for component but still not sure if 'ordinary' TVs can accept such signals?”

Those Red, Green and Blue phonos are unlikely to be for component video but RGB (think about it and all will become clear )

Don't know whose clever idea it was to use red green and blue for commponent and RGB. Fair enough for RGB but likely to confuse the hell out of the unwary when used for component. Might lead some people to assume they were interchangable.
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by chrisjr:
“It depends on what you get out of them if you connect just the "high" wire. If you get a reasonably full range sound then you have two options.

1/ use only the Aiwa high connection and ignore the low connections. Then use your existing separate sub. Don't connect the Aiwa Low wires to anything.

2/ connect as previously described, left Aiwa speaker high to amp left front, right Aiwa speaker high to amp right front. Wire the two Aiwa low connections in series to the amp sub. Do not connect your separate sub.

Basically use either Aiwa low connections OR the separate sub but not both at the same time. By all means try both options and just pick the one you think sounds best.”

I was thinking about this last night - Each speaker has a bare wire and phono connection. Couldn't they connect the bare wires as normal to the receiver (left +/- right +/-) then connect the phonos from the two speakers to a Y splitter and connect that to the sub input on the receiver. Looks like all the sub/s need is the mono signal from the amp as they will have their own power onboard.

Have I just described option 2.
steven123
20-08-2008
Well got the Cambridge Audio 540R amp, got it home, opened the box and unpacked the amp ready to connect it. However, I immediately noticed that there are no speaker terminals for a (passive) subwoofer like my previous Eltax system used. I called Richer Sounds and they said that I cannot connect my subwoofer, at least not in anyway that will have it sounding half-decent. They said I could connect it to one of the unused speaker terminals i.e. centre surround but it wouldn't sound right so seems pointless plugging it in at all if that is the case. RS said I would need to buy an active Sub woofer and offered me a Gale: Storm 8 (second hand) for £40. I have asked them to reserve this for me, as after buying the amp I obviously want to be able to use it properly. However before I spend, more cash is there any way at all I can get the existing sub to work reasonably?

Assuming I have to buy an active sub, I might as well get an extra satellite speaker too so I can use the full 6.1 capability of the amp. RS said they are only generally sold in pairs which means more cost and also have the issue of choosing something suitable to go with my existing speakers, not too bothered about design but if it is massively more powerful the sound would be unbalanced, at least that’s what I am concerned of.

So whilst the amp looks great and I am very pleased to find it has 6.1 (I thought it was only 5.1) I have to admit I am sorely disappointed it seems I can’t use it properly on my current speakers?
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Well got the Cambridge Audio 540R amp, got it home, opened the box and unpacked the amp ready to connect it. However, I immediately noticed that there are no speaker terminals for a (passive) subwoofer like my previous Eltax system used. I called Richer Sounds and they said that I cannot connect my subwoofer, at least not in anyway that will have it sounding half-decent. They said I could connect it to one of the unused speaker terminals i.e. centre surround but it wouldn't sound right so seems pointless plugging it in at all if that is the case. RS said I would need to buy an active Sub woofer and offered me a Gale: Storm 8 (second hand) for £40. I have asked them to reserve this for me, as after buying the amp I obviously want to be able to use it properly. However before I spend, more cash is there any way at all I can get the existing sub to work reasonably?
”

Receivers do not have separate connections for passive subs, you use the speaker terminals.

You should have two sets of speaker terminals on the sub, input and output. You need to connect the speakers to the subs inputs then connect the sub to the left/right speaker terminals on the amp. If it's a sub from another system like an all in one you may not be able to connect it successfully.

An active sub would be much better and give you true 5.1 as it will be connected directly to the amps sub channel where it will receive dedicated low frequencies, passive subs are OK but you don't get a true 5.1 as they get their low frequencies from the left/right channel and not the dedicated low frequency channel, it would be a 5.0 system.
steven123
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“
You should have two sets of speaker terminals on the sub, input and output. You need to connect the speakers to the subs inputs then connect the sub to the left/right speaker terminals on the amp. If it's a sub of another system like an all in one you may not be able to connect it successfully.
”

The sub only has one set of terminals on it; negative and positive, i.e. it connects just like any of the satellite speakers do, I have another DVD system in another room, ironically enough the DVD drive has gone on that one too, that also connects the sub just like another speaker so it is hardly all that obscure to connect it that way.

I really don't see why the amp couldn't provide a connection for those that don't have cash to splash on an active one.
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“The sub only has one set of terminals on it; negative and positive, i.e. it connects just like any of the satellite speakers do, I have another DVD system in another room, ironically enough the DVD drive has gone on that one too, that also connects the sub just like another speaker so it is hardly all that obscure to connect it that way.

I really don't see why the amp couldn't provide a connection for those that don't have cash to splash on an active one. ”

The problem here is the all in one system, they are purposely built so that if anything goes wrong you end up buying a complete new system because nothing is upgradable, another downside is nothing rarely fits anything else other than the system itself.

Receivers are not at fault, most if not all support connections for passive and active subs, the issue you have at present is trying to fit a sub from another system to a dedicated AV receiver.

Looks like the best way out is to grab the active sub from RS, I don't think you'll get much joy with the subs you have to be honest. You have bought a decent amp you may as well carry on and connect a sub that is purposely built for the job.
steven123
20-08-2008
Fair enough, guess it will make for a better system in the long run, just wish I had bought it all at the time, it's like building a PC and finding you forgot to buy a major component :S to be fair they recommended it at RS but I just thought they were trying to get me to upgrade rather than telling me that I actually needed the active sub.
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Fair enough, guess it will make for a better system in the long run, just wish I had bought it all at the time, it's like building a PC and finding you forgot to buy a major component :S to be fair they recommended it at RS but I just thought they were trying to get me to upgrade rather than telling me that I actually needed the active sub.”

Now you have explained the sub connections I think RS are playing ball this time, as far as I can tell they are giving you good advice.

Just don't let them sell you a £20 sub cable, any old phono cable will do, you may have one kicking around the house somewhere, if not you can pick them up online for a couple of quid.
steven123
20-08-2008
Well I hooked it all up minus the sub and put on a DVD and have to say even without a sub it did a sterling job and still managed to sound better than my previous system; somehow the sounds seemed more distinct and directional with a great dynamic range. In fact I hardly noticed the lack of sub at all which makes me suspect the existing one wasn't actually doing all that much on the other system.

A little thing but; when I power it off at the front it goes into standby, from that is it ok to power it off at the mains if it's not to be used for a while i.e. overnight or does it have to be turned off with the flip switch on the back too before powering off at the mains?

Anyway, I will most likely go with the sub offered by Richer Sounds. Bearing in mind the existing satellites already sound very good do you think it worth buying an extra one for 6.1 or should I just leave them as is? As I would probably have to buy a pair, I was thinking of replacing the front two with the new ones and using one of the old ones as the rear centre speaker, the issue is finding a reasonable match to what I have, and of course the cost.
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Glad you have gotten something out of the unit, there nothing worse than having something in place but you can't listen to it.

As for the speakers, I can only recommend you save up and buy a dedicated speaker package or make up your own package from one of the various manufacturers that are out there. Only then will you have the guarantee they all match which is important.

For the money you are spending on the sub and possibly 2 more speakers to upgrade the system to 6.1, you could in fact get Yamaha's speaker package, NSP110, it a good stater system which would possible sound far better than mixing and matching various other speakers together.

6.1 is very good if you have the room, the surround back speaker really needs to be a good distance from the listener, no closer than 1.5m, any closer and it will ruin the rear soundstage, in this case it's far better to stick to 5.1.
steven123
20-08-2008
I assume this is the Yamaha unit you mean: http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...id=YAMA-NSP110 I have been thinking about that. Although my Eltax speakers did sound very good on the amp they are only 50 watts per speaker where as the 100 watt Yamaha's would (I expect) allow the amp to show more of its potential?

Do you think the sub in the Yamaha package would be comparable in quality to the Gale Storm 8 RS offered me? If it is then for the extra £40 over the £40 RS want for the sub it might well be worth changing the whole lot. I could then sell the Eltax speakers and recoup a bit against the extra spending.

Also, with what you say about distance, I don't think 6.1 is practical at the moment as my room just wouldn't allow me to keep the needed 1.5m distance, the room is not very large, perhaps if I re-arranged my furniture it might be just possible but I think sticking to 5.1 rather than a squashed/uncomfortable 6.1 might be best for now.
Deacon1972
20-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“I assume this is the Yamaha unit you mean: http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...id=YAMA-NSP110 I have been thinking about that. Although my Eltax speakers did sound very good on the amp they are only 50 watts per speaker where as the 100 watt Yamaha's would (I expect) allow the amp to show more of its potential?”

Yes that's the package I was referring too.

It would be a good match for the Cambridge.
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Do you think the sub in the Yamaha package would be comparable in quality to the Gale Storm 8 RS offered me? If it is then for the extra £40 over the £40 RS want for the sub it might well be worth changing the whole lot. I could then sell the Eltax speakers and recoup a bit against the extra spending.”

This is a tough one to answer.

As a speaker package the Yamaha represents very good value for money, but I would have to say the Gale sub is probably better than the Yamaha sub. IMO the Yamaha package would sound better than the Gale sub partnered with your old speakers.


Originally Posted by steven123:
“Also, with what you say about distance, I don't think 6.1 is practical at the moment as my room just wouldn't allow me to keep the needed 1.5m distance, the room is not very large, perhaps if I re-arranged my furniture it might be just possible but I think sticking to 5.1 rather than a squashed/uncomfortable 6.1 might be best for now.”

You really need plenty of room for 6.1, probably best to stick to 5.1 for the time being. There's nothing stopping you hooking up the 6th speaker and trying it out, who knows, you might like how it sounds.
steven123
21-08-2008
Ok, I think I will go with the Yamaha speaker package. I will probably also get the five years extended warranty they offer as it's only £10. Whilst I have never actually had any speakers fail on me before, I suppose with the active sub being powered there is some chance of a fault occuring in that.

Also as it is a speaker package would it be reasonable to assume speaker cable is included in it? Whilst I have speaker cable for my existing speakers I wouldn't exactly class it as quality stuff. In addition I am seriously considering re-organising my whole room to give more distance from the TV and amp and hopefully in the process make room for that rear centre speaker so would need a bit more cable if I wanted to use that. I think my current centre Eltax would make a good candidate, just have to put a Yamaha sticker over the Eltax one and no one will be (much) wiser
Deacon1972
21-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Ok, I think I will go with the Yamaha speaker package. I will probably also get the five years extended warranty they offer as it's only £10. Whilst I have never actually had any speakers fail on me before, I suppose with the active sub being powered there is some chance of a fault occuring in that.”

In all the years I have been into home cinema I too have never had a speaker/active sub fail, yet. £10 is nothing to pay for peace of mind, but my guess is once you have had the system a while you will want to upgrade it for something a little more special long before the 5yrs is up.
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Also as it is a speaker package would it be reasonable to assume speaker cable is included in it? Whilst I have speaker cable for my existing speakers I wouldn't exactly class it as quality stuff. In addition I am seriously considering re-organising my whole room to give more distance from the TV and amp and hopefully in the process make room for that rear centre speaker so would need a bit more cable if I wanted to use that. I think my current centre Eltax would make a good candidate, just have to put a Yamaha sticker over the Eltax one and no one will be (much) wiser ”

Speaker wire is include as well as a sub cable, as for the quality, I don't think it will be anything special but it will be good enough for your needs. Supplied cable consists of 3x 4m and 2x 10m, this will give you an idea if you need any extra. No length is given for the sub cable.

Room layout is important, when reorganising the room take into account the seating position and where the speakers/TV will be. Ideally you need to be square on to view the TV with the centre speaker under the TV with the left and right speaker either side, the rears above ear height on the side walls with the surround back on the rear wall.

More info on setup here....

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-SVawuGX...placement.html
steven123
21-08-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“Speaker wire is include as well as a sub cable, as for the quality, I don't think it will be anything special but it will be good enough for your needs. Supplied cable consists of 3x 4m and 2x 10m, this will give you an idea if you need any extra. No length is given for the sub cable.
”

I have asked richer sounds to reserve the Yamaha speaker set in black, and they agreed to knock £10 off the price for me so it's only £10 more than the silvers and they will match my amp better as that’s the black version. The included speaker wire should be fine. Unless the sub is truly enormous, which I would not expect on an entry-level system, I will be having it right next to the amp so the short sub cable shouldn't be an issue.

Even on the existing speakers, the unit continues to amaze me. I had an audio CD on and clarity of sound was superb with many sounds I never even realised were on the disc; obviously the previous DVD system wasn't pushing the speakers to anything like their full potential.

However, my room layout at the moment is very poor for a decent surround set up. I think a lot of the problem stems from me having too much in one room as in addition to my AV equipment (TV, consoles, DVD players, Sky+, amp etc I also have my PC, with its own screen, speakers, chair, desk etc which I think is making the room a bit cramped. I am thinking of moving the PC out to a bed room and then using the whole length of the room for my AV set up i.e. TV, amp, AV equipment one side of room and sofa with back speakers right at the opposite side. Then hopefully this will let me make a little space behind the sofa to place the centre rear speaker and complete the 6.1 set up.

Do you think I could get away with recycling the Eltax centre speaker to use as a rear centre or will it get totally overwhelmed by the Yamaha's?
Deacon1972
21-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Do you think I could get away with recycling the Eltax centre speaker to use as a rear centre or will it get totally overwhelmed by the Yamaha's?”

Should be fine, not a lot comes through the surround back when 6.1 is engaged, even using 6.1 as a matrix format it should be OK. The fronts/sub are the most important, you have a certain amount of flexibility when it comes to the rear speakers, but within reason.

The secret is in the speaker setup which you will do via the amps setup menu, pay particular attention to speaker levels and delay times, you want the sound from each speaker to get to you at the same time and at the same volume. Some listeners have the surrounds up too loud drowning out the fronts, some have the sub too loud which ruins the soundtrack all together. You will be better rewarded the more time you spend setting the system up correctly.
SheepdogNo1
21-08-2008
I have a Marantz DTS 6.1es surround amp powering a sub , a Morduant Short MS304 front centre , Eltax fornts & rear & have used my original Eltax centre speaker as the rear one instead & does a superb job. Keep meaning to upgrade my Eltax fronts to some nice JBLs that ive seen. I move house tommorow so will reasess when i get it all st up again, many hours of fun to be had sorting that lot out!

steven123
22-08-2008
Well have re-organised my room and am very pleased with the result. Whilst I couldn’t find space to get the PC out of the room I have moved it off into a corner instead of it dominating nearly half the room like it did. So now, I have the sofa directly opposite the TV with plenty of room either side for surround speakers and even sufficient for the centre back so I can enjoy 6.1. All being well I should be able to get a lift to pick up the speaker set tomorrow (Saturday), so home cinema bliss is not far away.

However, the re-organisation of my room has really exposed the limitations of the ancient wiring of the house. I have made a thread on advice forum, as I was worried about overloading the socket, but in essence, all my AV/PC kit is on one side of the room, which only has two wall sockets. The PC is on the opposite side to the socket so to even get electricity to it I have to plug the eight way socket I use for PC and peripherals into a four way one (that is powering my Sky+ and DVD recorder).

On the remaining socket, I have a six-way extension but that has to power TV, consoles, DVD player, amp and I believe the active sub also has to be mains powered as well? Indeed, I noticed in the instructions the amp alone can gobble up to 850 watts (my Eltax DVD system was ~100 watts). I guess you need plenty of juice for quality sound, still I would hope it would only use that much if it was driven very hard with enormous speakers attached. Seems I might have to try to get some more dedicated wall sockets in the long term.

Regarding the existing Eltax speakers (four satellites) I was wondering if there was any useful way in which I could recycle them as they are perfectly good speakers in their own right. I also have a 7.1 system for my PC (Videologic ZXR750) where the amplifier is combined into the sub and the speakers each connect to that. The speakers actually each connect by a phono connection at the sub/amp side but if I just got a length of phono cable and plugged one end into the sub/amp and chopped the other off and wired it to the Eltax speaker would it be likely to work? I know I couldn’t replace all speakers but could at least upgrade the centre and left and right ones.

Nothing at all wrong with the existing PC speakers, just seeing if I can do anything useful with the left over speakers I will have. Seeing as the whole Eltax system and speakers cost me just £30 delivered on eBay, I doubt an incomplete set would have much worthwhile resale value.
Deacon1972
22-08-2008
Pleased to hear you are nearly up and running, you should be able to sit down Saturday night and watch a few movies.

Sockets are few and far between here too, I only have two double wall sockets either side of the TV, these have to power nine electrical items, thank heavens for extension sockets, I use Belkin surge protectors and they do the job very well. In fact we had the Fire brigade round not so long ago checking on house safety, smoke alarms etc, and I did ask if these were a hazard, they said they were perfectly safe so long as you don't overload them, to which I haven't.

Have you thought about running the PC through the Cambridge? This would free up a little more space as there would be no need to run separate 7.1 system just for the PC. You may be able to get a few quid back by selling all your surplus items on Ebay.
steven123
23-08-2008
Got the speaker set, got it home and unpacked and about to start wiring it up. Initial impressions very good, the speakers don't actually seem to be any larger than the Eltax ones, perhaps a bit narrower and taller but thats fine, my room wouldn't take huge ones, they do look very sleek in black and are pleasingly weighty. The sub is a very good size and weighs a ton, the Eltax one felt like an empty box in comparison and to be honest sounded like one; I could never say it really made itself heard.

One question before I get set up; the manual shows a single phono cable going from the amplifier sub output and connecting to the L (left/mono) connection on the sub. However there is also an R (right) phono socket on the sub. Is this not supposed to connect to anything? Other than the mains lead these are the only connections on the back of the sub. Also the sub has a volume control; it says to set this by listening to some audio but is there a recommended level to start with (its a normal 1-10 scale) or if not any particular DVD movies or audio CDs that are good for getting the sub settings right?

I decided to go with the five-year warranty at RS, total was still under £100 for the speakers and although I might want to upgrade after a while I would like to keep them at least three years to feel I have gotten good value out of them, so at least some of the extended warranty will be useful. As for the amp, I could not see why I would want to upgrade that at all, it having everything needed to make the most of DVDs and current consoles and even HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

The next things I am thinking of getting for my home cinema set up are a HD-DVD drive for my 360; I know it’s a defunct format but the players and discs are so cheap I could put together a nice film library for very little and secondly a DAB radio; hopefully a Cambridge Audio to match the amp.
Deacon1972
23-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Got the speaker set, got it home and unpacked and about to start wiring it up. Initial impressions very good, the speakers don't actually seem to be any larger than the Eltax ones, perhaps a bit narrower and taller but thats fine, my room wouldn't take huge ones, they do look very sleek in black and are pleasingly weighty. The sub is a very good size and weighs a ton, the Eltax one felt like an empty box in comparison and to be honest sounded like one; I could never say it really made itself heard.

One question before I get set up; the manual shows a single phono cable going from the amplifier sub output and connecting to the L (left/mono) connection on the sub. However there is also an R (right) phono socket on the sub. Is this not supposed to connect to anything? Other than the mains lead these are the only connections on the back of the sub. Also the sub has a volume control; it says to set this by listening to some audio but is there a recommended level to start with (its a normal 1-10 scale) or if not any particular DVD movies or audio CDs that are good for getting the sub settings right?

I decided to go with the five-year warranty at RS, total was still under £100 for the speakers and although I might want to upgrade after a while I would like to keep them at least three years to feel I have gotten good value out of them, so at least some of the extended warranty will be useful. As for the amp, I could not see why I would want to upgrade that at all, it having everything needed to make the most of DVDs and current consoles and even HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

The next things I am thinking of getting for my home cinema set up are a HD-DVD drive for my 360; I know it’s a defunct format but the players and discs are so cheap I could put together a nice film library for very little and secondly a DAB radio; hopefully a Cambridge Audio to match the amp.”

You normally connect the sub to the Left input.

Set the sub at half volume to start with, play a movie or a bit of music you know well that has a good amount of bass and make adjustments from there. You want the sub to compliment the soundtrack not drown out all the other speakers.

Ideally you should set all the speakers up with a sound pressure meter, this is so all speakers are set to the same level/volume (75db), but if you haven't got one the best you can do is to do it by ear.
steven123
23-08-2008
Unfortunately I don't have a sound pressure meter, so will have to use my non-audiophile ears or if it sounds fine on defaults I'll probably leave it that way; I know the amp has delay settings but unless such things are strictly necessary to achieving good sound I'll probably leave them well alone.

Just started on the wiring now; the speaker cable looks rather thin, actually more so than what came with the Eltax but at least its brand new where as, even when I got it, the Eltax wire had a few bits where it looked like floor tacks had pierced it though I don't think any had actually gotten through to the metal core.
Deacon1972
23-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Unfortunately I don't have a sound pressure meter, so will have to use my non-audiophile ears or if it sounds fine on defaults I'll probably leave it that way; I know the amp has delay settings but unless such things are strictly necessary to achieving good sound I'll probably leave them well alone.

Just started on the wiring now; the speaker cable looks rather thin, actually more so than what came with the Eltax but at least its brand new where as, even when I got it, the Eltax wire had a few bits where it looked like floor tacks had pierced it though I don't think any had actually gotten through to the metal core.”

I wouldn't advise using default settings, they will be all over the place.

Setting the levels and delay times is pretty straight forward.

You need to measure the speaker the furthest away from you, this will be your starting point, then measure all other speakers until you end up with the one closest to you, this will have the most amount of delay. This ensures the sound from all speakers reach you at the correct time, if the delay times are set incorrectly you can have an echo effect.

For every foot difference you will need to add 1ms.

For example - furthest speaker is the sub and it's 12' away, front right is 10', you will need to add 2ms to the front right speaker. If the surrounds are 8' away you will need to add 4ms.

All you can do is make an educated guess with the speaker levels, you should be able to get them within 2db-3db of one another.
steven123
23-08-2008
Thanks, I will try the distance settings, though if I can just get it working in some form I’ll be happy with that for today. Quick wiring question: in the manual for the speakers it says the black wire with the white dashes is positive and plain black negative so I am wiring them as instructed. However, the speaker from the Eltax; that will be the rear centre always had the stripe in its cable wired to negative. Should I change it to be inline with the other speakers? Personally I wouldn’t have thought it mattered so long as it’s wired the same on the amp and speaker end though thought I should check.
Deacon1972
23-08-2008
Originally Posted by steven123:
“Thanks, I will try the distance settings, though if I can just get it working in some form I’ll be happy with that for today. Quick wiring question: in the manual for the speakers it says the black wire with the white dashes is positive and plain black negative so I am wiring them as instructed. However, the speaker from the Eltax; that will be the rear centre always had the stripe in its cable wired to negative. Should I change it to be inline with the other speakers? Personally I wouldn’t have thought it mattered so long as it’s wired the same on the amp and speaker end though thought I should check.”

Don't worry about what's on the wire, it's only there to make it easier so you don't make any cross connections - so long as you have negative to negative and positive to positive from speaker to amp that's all that's important.
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