Re: the whole Camilla always gets good partners malarkey. David- rubbish. Roger- slightly better. James- Better. Ray- Better but DULL. Gethin- Hard work but results.

But then Lilia's had mainly the luck of the draw too, she might not have had natural dancers, but she's done pretty well considering (ok Dom was a sleaze) but she maybe got further than she should have with him or whatever.

It all depends on the work ethics I think of the professional and the celebrity, if they think they have a chance to win or that instinctive competitiveness, they're going to throw themselves head first into their work (could be said with Lilia and Aled/Darren/Matt) but then others may take time adjusting to the regime of SCD etc. I know Lilia's got an oldy this time, but she's been fortunate with Darren/Aled/Matt/Dom that they've been young(ish)

Anyway yes, my opinion. I'd like to see Camilla and Vincent in the final in all honesty just to see what showdances they can produce, I'm also inclined to say Ian but I'm not sure how Jodie will fare with the latin dances.

Ray was pretty dull actually wasn't he? I'd forgotten till you said that, about his 'day in the life' on ITT, and the yoga...

I think on reflection one reason why I see Camilla to have had a lot of good partners is that for both Gethin and Tom I thought, even before knowing who they would be partnered with, that they were possible contenders. And I don't remember hearing Ray's name rumoured before SCD4, but if I had, I would possibly have thought the same for him, being a fit attractive young actor.
In some respects I stand by that as I think Ray-Gethin-Tom is a fairly easy run of partners compared to say Peter-Willie-Austin, but then I suppose you could also say that on paper Fiona Phillips looked like a pretty good partner . So first impressions aren't always the best way to judge.

I think my initial point though, which was clouded with my opinion of Camilla in general, is that there's no obvious reason why Camilla should have been with Tom instead of Andrew, and there are several good reasons why she shouldn't have been. I really think Andrew is going to struggle with dancing with someone so much shorter than he is, and Tom is actually a good bit nearer to Ola's height. Also no-one could possibly argue that Kenny was a better partner than Gethin, so on that front as well you'd think Ola would be given a better chance this year. Although who knows, maybe Andrew will be the one to watch this year...

In any case, it is water under the bridge as Tom is with Camilla!

I'm definitely supporting Tom and Camilla this year, and esp. Camilla because I supported her last year with the amazing Gethin!!!!!!

From Hayley

Ray was in the words of a judge "Dull. Dull. Dull". So much so, I often forget she danced with him!

Yeh I do agree with what you've said Katie, I honestly actually expected Camilla to be with Mark purely because of the height issue and her being used to dancing with Ian etc.

Of his three highest-scored routines, I can remember partly the flekrl (sp?) which was done beautifully. Actually I think he did a better VW than Mark Ramprakash (posture and spinning wise). HOWEVER, Mark went straight into hold with Karen and spun and spun till the end, whereas Camilla cleverly added a lot of storyline (non-spinning, which ironically Gethin was very good at doing) in the beginning and the end.

And this is just my opinion, I think/feel Gethin's AS and jive were a tad over-marked. I cannot remember the specifics of the routines per se, but in particular I recalled him burning his trousers knee-sliding in his jive and he seemed to slide (not knee slides, but sliding side-to-side) quite a few times with lots of lighting flashes and loud music. And I think Camilla cleverly repeated the moves in the jive routine (because I remembered the sliding from side-to-side) again and it was pointed out by Darren Benett in ITT (I did the screencaps).

Back to Tom. I really hope there will be no breakdown in relationship with his fiancee from the gruelling training and Holby filming sessions. He's about to be married, according to the Sun!

I am quietly rooting for Rachael and Vincent this year. I thought Vincent was robbed of doing more routines with Stephanie last year... I voted for them but still they were out on the first week...

I know it's completely subjective at this juncture but I wish R&V will do VERY WELL this time. One only hopes Vincent doesn't go over-board with his Italian-lover-boy thingie with Rachael too much...

And RE: Vincent, I hope he doesn't overcomplicate routines like he did with Louisa!

Definitely- I seem to remember though that he had improved towards the end- particularly her Paso and Tango. The final week they were in the judges did say he had gone the other way and made their routines too safe, but I (not knowing anything about it) thought it was actually just that the two dances they had were just not ones that especially suited Louisa.

I'd like to see Vincent do well too, particularly after last year's grossy insensitive input from the wonderful Tess It may well be that Rachel is Vincent's 'compensation' for that, and Tom is Camilla's compensation for the semi final exit, which didn't go down too well with a lot of people...I don't know

Maybe the routines you mention were a tad over-marked, maybe not, but you won't find many outside of particular fans who believe that M+F's waltz was a genuine 40 either...That includes Philip Jackson The silence or evasiveness from all the pro's on the subject speaks volumes too...and it was that dance that left G+C coming out for their last dance without a hope in hell!

I also hope Vincent doesn't get the same stick that Camilla got for saying that she wants to win it He came out with the same statement in no uncertain terms just the other day...

Good luck to all of them anyway, at the end of the day they're pro's in their field and earning a living just like the rest of us Looking forward to being seriously entertained again!

He won't, of that you can be sure! It's not acceptable for women to be competitive- same for Camilla as for Karen
Silly really as you can tell all the pros want to win- but somehow it's not ok to say it!

I wouldn't say Gethin's ballroom was especially overmarked- I've seen routines I preferred in AS but not in VW. I did think his Jive was quite insanely overmarked, but do also agree that the M&F Waltz wasn't a 40. In fact we did have a discussion a while ago about the general overmarking of series five, and concluded that by and large, every couple was overmarked so in a sense it was cancelled out... the only sense they were really overmarked was relative to previous series.
This will sound a bit conspiracy theory but since I'm not a fan of either Gethin or Matt maybe it's ok... I kind of thought at the time that they had purposely given Matt 40 because it meant whatever they gave Gethin for his second dance he would be stuck in third place that night. That gave a good chance that he would be in the bottom two and they could get rid of him. Otherwise if he got to the final they wouldn't have any say over who won- and this was a series in which a girl was supposed to win from the start... so by getting rid of popular Gethin they shifted the odds in favour of Alesha.
I don't say this because I thought Gethin deserved or didn't deserve to be in the final- I actually had quite a strong dislike for him. But it was strange the way the judges suddenly turned on him, and things that didn't matter when they were giving him tens the previous week were suddenly putting him in third place. I also don't say it because I thought Matt didn't deserve to be in the final, but for the notoriously picky Craig to give a ten to a dance which is acknowledged not to be technically perfect seems a bit fishy to me.

One thing about Camilla deserving another chance after all this... if there was a conspiracy, I could kind of see it. But compare to series two- it was actually admitted that the judges had purposely manipulated the marks in the semi-final in a bid to save Denise from being eliminated, and get rid of Julian. Unfortunately it backfired, and Aled, who was seen as safe because he had won the public vote every week previously, was eliminated. Now, obviously Lilia was compensated by winning series three, but I highly doubt that the producers had any idea Darren would take to dancing the way he did, so any compensation was unintentional.

I think maybe winning is like a man's type comment, and when a woman comes out and says it..everyone goes a bit odd.

I still believe had Kelly not had to pull out, she'd have been in that final, perhaps although the judges didn't want to admit her and Brendan should have been there, they were a bit annoyed at who was in the semi/final.

I really would like to see Philip on the judges panel, I really enjoyed his commentary and found he was spot on with what he said.

I am not sure about 'compensation'. I actually feel that every series is a new start. It did strike me as odd why Andrew Castle or Mark Foster wasn't paired with Camilla, considering Camilla did so exceptionally well paired with Ian. I don't really think there is a conspiracy here. Just it strike me as odd they went on about matching heights and all, and we have the rather petite Ola paired with someone over 6ft! Hmmmm...

I am not a fan of Matt (though I defended him last year when I saw some of the most distasteful vitriol thrown at him because he messed up the quarter-finals and got through because he 'begged' the public to save him). Nor do I now think his and Flavia's Waltz deserved a perfect score. As a matter of fact, if we really want to award perfection with a perfect 40, then NO ONE will ever attain this magical score (we may fancy ourselves to be a perfectionist, but truth be told it's because we are imperfect that we are aiming for the 'impossible', if that makes philosophical sense?).

With regards to silent evasiveness from the pros about Matt's Waltz, the jury is is out there. Afterall, it'll be up to the ITT team to interview the pros about which dance they like and why of last seasons. And you might get someone to talk about Matt's, or Alesha's or Gethin's Waltz (possibly Len and some pro comments during the masterclass session when they tried to introduce the dance to the 'new' audience).

Same stick as Camilla for wanting to win? Don't they ALL want to win? If the public turned against Camilla because she said she wanted to win, then the same could be said about Karen in series four. She made it quite clear she wanted to go into the finals. Did that stop the public from voting her and Mark? After all, Gethin is VERY popular, more so than Matt.

Of course, we can argue that the judges wanted Alesha to win so they on purpose put Matt (least popular among the semi-finalists) through in the dance-off.

Speaking of which, I really hope there is NO dance-off in the semi-finals again! BUT, if it's a four-way semi-finals, then the dance-off would be fine, I guess.

As I have said last year, if there weren't a family tragedy that caused Kelly to leave unseasonably, then we'll have a four-way semi-finals and Kelly could very well be there with Alesha, Gethin and Matt!

Well, such is life, I guess...

I think there is a dance off again and Len has the final vote..argh.

I was expecting Mark Foster myself tbh so I don't really have an answer as to the why's and wherefore's of who got who for this year...

I defended Matt once or twice myself as well...and Kelly, and Alesha, and Gethin, and Flavia, and Camilla Every one of them at one time or another took ridiculously personal stick that was completely unjustified I hope to God none of the pro's go on the beeb site this year if last year is anything to go by...

I'm definitely supporting Tom and Camilla this year, because last year I supported the GORGEOUS Gethin and he turned into a phenomenal dancer!!!! And I really like Camilla as well.

From Hayley

Just watched Tom's new Loose Women interview.

He's a charmer. Simply puppy-dog-eyes his way through the difficult questions like postponement of his wedding, and that tap-dance episode. I have to say, the loose women did their homework!

BUT, they were obviously charmed by Tom. So...

The tap dance episode? A one-off routine that he recorded ages ago? Tbh It's Rachel's dance CV that is considerably more interesting than Tom's...Out of all the contestants she is the one who appears to have the most blatant previous experience of all of them...How about sharing your views on that SCD Observer?

Rachael is a woman. Already I can see an Emma Buntonesque consequence for her. It'll be blood-shed in this forum soon enough. UNLESS, she has the charm of Alesha Dixon, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, she can get away from it.

BUT, I still think it's unlikely she'll win.

Whereas for Tom, I think it is VERY likely now that I watch Loose Women that not only is he rather good-looking bloke, he's a charmer. And you NEED that to win votes. This plus his obvious talent (even though he's not ballroom trained), will get him to the finals. I can almost be sure of that now that I watched his latest Loose Women appearance.

BTW, this is a 'Tom and Cam' discussion thread (not necessarily dissing or appreciation thread), so let's keep in topic, okay?