If they wanted someone who knew the history of music on TOTP they would bring on Jimmy Saville or Richard (that song was first sung in ...) Park (that would be fun) or hire Foxy. Bet Fern or Cat or Edith spend hours researching people who have not seen the hit parade in ten years........

What they need is someone who the peformers and the target audience like, someone who actually knows the current generation by christian names, someone who doesn't upset Blue, Girls Aloud or So Solid by getting their names wrong and who knows something about their last and next albums. Kate has been doing that job for a year now. Shes interviewed everyone from Kylie and Justin to Lemar and this year's FA winner and she doesnt make mistakes when she is on her own ground . Looks a fine CV to me.

Scripted and rehearsed.

Of course. Since you put it like that, it puts things into perpective.

Yes, that's Kate's biggest strength isn't it?

We've seen her mastery of reading scripts,..and seen how rehearsing has provided that professional touch to her performances on RI:SE.

I agree with you.

She may well be able to go through the motions and get through presenting the names of acts on TOTP.
But Kate is trying to carve out a career in presenting.
RI:SE job has gone down the swanny, her radio job on Capitol has gone,..now she has to take stock.

She obviously wants to progress,..or just survive in her presenting career,..but her options sem to be very limited.

If she decides to go in a certain direction,..it's time she learned something about that particular genre.
What would happen after TOTP?....I imagine that she would be in a very static predicament.

She would be known to present a music show,..so the next logical step would be to have her eyes on music presenting in general. To be a monkey who reads out the names of music acts out is one thing,..but what happens when she is considered for the next music presenting job?
There's not that many music shows that share the same format as TOTP,....she might have to consider taking on jobs where she actually gets to interview the music acts herself.

It's inevitable that TOTP will only be a temporary job for her. It's not like it's going to be a job for life. She has to look beyond TOTP, and see where she can go next.
If her music knowledge is extremely limited to knowing the names of the latest boyband members,..then who is going to employ her in the future?
If her knowledge is truly as limited as it seems,.it looks like TOTP is a very limiting prospect for her. At some point her weaknesses in this genre are going to be exposed,..she will be seen to have little credibility....then what does she do?
It will probably be the last music show she presents.

What direction does she go in then?
If after every show she presents (RI:SE,..TOTP) she appears less credible as a presenter, what are her options?..Who's going to want to employ her?
It looks like she will cut off, or limit, her career options after everything she presents.
There will come a time when people won't even consider her, because they will realise that she isn't suited to much.

Anyway,..who knows?...She's managing to survive at the moment.
If Patrick Kielty can fu*k up every show he presents, and get it cancelled,..then I suppose Kate can too.

But it's fun to take the piss out of her on this music knowledge thing,...Why's that?
Because in one of the other Kate threads,....all her fans were saying,..okay fair enough,..she doesn't have a strong grasp of general knowledge,......but her knowledge of music is excellent

Heh,..well guess what?

She's shit.

You may as well get some thirteen year old airhead to present TOTP then. They probably know more than Kate.

That's the thing with TOTP though, isn't it?...The audiences are turning away from it bevause it's primary focus nowadays is the extremely teenie music.
It's basically a CBBC show now, isn't it?

It always focused on really pappy crap,..but now it's exclusively for kiddies. Before it managed to get play some decent music amidst the teenie bopper stuff,..once upon a time.

The older teenagers are probably doing something better than watch TOTP now.......Nowadays it caters for the under tens.
And it appears that even those are turning away,...probably got better things to do, like play with their Barbie Doll,..or have a go on their Playstation.

nope dont agree with ya. Looks like a nothing special CV to me. Out of all the tv presenters out there, Kate is the best candidate for the job? And what's the evidence that she is hugely popular with the target audience?

i didnt say they need to be a pop music historian, it was bystander that said that.

i said "it helps if they actually know something about the music scene past and present"
....just a basic knowledge of current acts and influential ones from the past will do. It's evidence of a real interest in pop music and gives the presenter a credibility to the viewer. I think thats an important thing for any show to be successful.
For example, Kate can read a script (well kind of) and she can drive a car, does that then make her a credible presenter of Top Gear too? over someone like Jeremy Clarkson?

She's interviewed some popstars, so what? so has Richard and Judy, maybe that qualifies them to present TOTP too?

Anyone with more than a passing interest in pop music should have heard of bands like Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Smiths etc even if you never actually heard their songs. Its not about that they're not going to be appearing on the show so it doesnt matter, thats not the point.... what her ignorance suggest is of someone who probably has no particular real interest in pop music. Which for a DJ/ TOTP presenter should surely be a desirable if not essential attribute.

And btw, wasnt TOTP's heyday when it was presented by people like Jimmy Savile, Tony Blackburn, Mike Read, Steve Wright etc... people who actually know something about pop music, they know about the bands so they can convey their enthusiasm about them to the audience..... substance over image.....
maybe its just possible thats one indication of possible reasons for where the show's going wrong, why the ratings are falling away ?
And personally i do think Foxy or any of the established respected music DJs would be better choices presenting TOTP than Kate.

Well thats what i think. But maybe thats just me

I think you made some very good points above, Marky.

A few people on here slag Iain Lee of on here, because he takes the piss out of Kate, and if she makes a mistake he jumps onto it.

The thing is,..that this actually helps Kate...This playful rivaly, and this having little digs at each other is useful to the recipe of RI:SE...It's all part of the flavour, it's part of it's mix.

But if you watch Kate perform on her own,..it's painful to watch.
You see her robotically reading things out,..struggling to pronounce words correctly,.and generally reading in a very awkward manner....You often see her with her head down reading long sentences out....You're willing her on,..but she's struggling.

(Actually,..I lie...I'm not willing her on at all,..I'm chuckling to myself)

Now if you take her out of that environment where her and Iain are bouncing off one another,...what's she going to be like?

If she reads things out in that monotone style of hers,..just managing to squeeze every word out,..how good is she going to be if Iain Lee isn't there to hold her hand and offer an easy escape mechanism.
It's easy to escape a tricky situation when it can be laughed off in the RI:SE studio..her mistakes have lead to some funny moments which have been capitalized on by Iian.

Now she's on her own....If on TOTP she gets to a word she can barely read,..she's got to get out of that mess on her own.

As Marky said above, she needs to be able to show some enthusiasm for what she's exactly saying. But when she reads items out on her own on RI:SE,..she doesn't do that..It appears that she reads the words, but she's not exactly understanding the meaning of them. It's like a mechanical machine style of reading.

It reminds me of when I was at school...It's like a ten year old reading something out in front of the class, or assembly. The kid has no enthusiasm for what he/she is reading, but just wants to get through it.
The teacher has literally forced them to read something out, and the little kid is trying his best, but still can't do it properly, while the teacher looks on trying to urge the words out of him and shakes his head in disgust when it's all over.

Anyway,..give her the TOTP job,..I'm looking forward to it.

Even with TOTP's Alrightmate, it still seems Kate needs her hand held, as she is useless left to her own devices with her notable lack of knowledge on subjects or maybe just her laziness or refusal to do what most presenters do and swot up on certain stuff for their shows.

I found this the other week on the Sky news Showbiz section. A bit more on TOTP's from 'Ann Montini's' section. Will type out as there isn't really a direct link to this piece without scrolling.

'Andi Peters may just be the man to save Top of the Pops.

The one-time Saturday mornings Kids host has been given the job of revamping the 40-year-old show.

He plans to feature more interaction with the audience.

A source told me "Andi plans to get pop stars to guest host the show - people like Holly Valance and The Cheeky Girls."

If you watched RI:SE or read the Kate on RI:SE thread in this forum, you would know that, even when she is on what you consider to be 'her own ground', Kate does still get the names wrong and make other assorted gaffes. I am still waiting to find out what exactly she does know about.

Top Shop ... and the music she features normally in Capital Radio.. as many young people do...

TOTP in recent times has tried out a lot of bright young things with what you might call presenter credibility, regarding their knowledge of music and remembering the first name of Joe Bloggs, the latest pop phenomenon, yet still the viewing figures are poor, so we can cross off credibility from the list of magic ingredients required to be a successful TOTP presenter.

The top professionals at the BBC don't know what the formula is so it's highly unlikely that amateur analysts are going to come up with the correct solution so easily.

Racist football players, maybe ?

Indeed ... with Kate presenting, in next to no time, you will also be able to cross off TOTP from the weekly schedule.

thanks Alrightmate, enjoyed reading all your excellent points, i totally agree
particularly your thoughts about why TOTP is turning viewers off

its just not as kool as it used to be.
as u say the music is mostly pappy crap manufactured and packaged for the prepubescent teeny market.
the presenters try too hard to be sexy and kool, its so desperate that its unkool. In fact i think thats what it boils down to, its just not a show anymore.....

try watching and compare with a proper music show like Later... with Jools Holland (someone with music cred )
- now thats a show......


btw, amateur analysis of what we think 's wrong with TOTP is as valid as 'top professionals at the BBC'..... maybe even more so, coz we are the disillusioned viewers who can tell them what it is about the show thats turning us off.

How do the 'top professionals at the BBC who dont know what the formula is', try to find that out?
- by asking us humble 'amateur analysts', for a start
.....as witness this invitation from the BBC website some weeks ago....
<quote>

" How would you change Top of the Pops?
Andi Peters, the former TOTP presenter, is planning new changes when he takes charge of the show as executive editor in September.
What is wrong with Top of the Pops? Does it need changing? How would you like it? What are your best TOTP moments? "

That would almost bring us full circle. The old fogeys way back in the fifties complained about the big swing bands having to make way for the new crazy Rock 'n Roll music. I'm not sure if they used the word crappy in those days, to describe it.

Yes, Jools Holland has got music cred, mostly amongst other musicians and the SAGA community but in his own right, in the field of "popular music " he didn't or doesn't exactly sell millions does he.
He's had more success with his compilation CD's

i hope i'm not turning into an old fogey then
i dont think all the chart music is bad, just cant stand the glorified karaoke stuff, boybands and plastic acts

i dont agree entirely with what u say about Jools Holland tho....
i agree overall he's been more critically than commercially successful, but Squeeze sold millions of records internationally including the states, they sold out madison square garden on their US tours. That's pretty successful i think? (bet Kate's never heard of them neither...)

Anyway, more importantly from the music cred TV presenter point of view, he is personally respected and well liked by the genuinely big stars in the industry. Which'd means they're happy to want to appear on his show, which in turn pulls in viewers.....
eg he's had on his show guests like Blur, Robbie williams, Radiohead, Stereophonics, Feeder, Ms Dynamite, Streets, Moby, Foofighters, Coldplay.....the list goes on, and they often return. Plus many of them first played on his show when they were still up-and-coming unknowns - Coldplay for example.

Later has an edgy feel and kool that TOTP has lost and i think it needs to recapture. I mean, they even tell you now who's going to be on TOTP the next week

networkbabe claims that "Kate is someone who the performers like"...... really? i find it hard to believe that any of the above, people like Chris martin or Dave grohl would say they personally like or respect her, as they do with JH.
Shes probably never heard of them anyway... I can just imagine it....

kate: foofighters? never heard of 'em
grohl: and before that i was in nirvana...
kate: nirvana, whats that? oh i know, so you're a buddhist... wicked, man

But TOTP is the Beeb's Top 20 show

As you say, marky, the top 20 these days is full of crap boy bands and manufactured pap. As long as this lasts TOTP will be about that kind of music and will appeal to the teenies who buy the stuff.

I still don't see why Kate needs to Know anything about 15 year old 'credible' music to present a show aimed at boy band fans ?

If we were told that Kate was taking over from Jools on Later, then I'd agree with you totally. But she isn't

Or if we were told that TOTP was no longer going to be about chart music and was going to be another version of Later, then Kate would be the wrong choice

But as long as TOTP is about current chart music I reckon she'll be fine

I still won't watch it though, but I recognise that it's not aimed at me

I started watching TOTP in the 60s to see The Beatles, Stones, Hollies, Kinks etc. If the presenter had been some sort of expert on Oscar Peterson and Frank Sinatra I would have hoped they would have kept quiet about it.

I'm sure teenage Wham and Duran Duran fans didn't give a hoot if the presenter knew about Hendrix and Led Zep

The beeb produces lots of music shows over TV and radio. The more discerning viewer/listener has plenty of choice, including the excellent Later

Let the teenies have their half hour slot of boy band pap presented by someone who isn't their mum or dad

That's a fair point. However, there are presenters of the right age group who are less gormless than Kate.

In fact I would have said that "Kate" was to old for the age group that todays TOTP is aimed at.

Even Fearne Cotton is less gormless than Kate.

I watched the start of TOTP tonight,..and for a few seconds I thought it was Kate presenting it.
Then I realised that it was actually Fearne Cotton...Fearne sounds uncannily like Kate Lawler....
...and it's amazing how similar these two look when they've got the slap on...She was caked in makeup.

Oops,..sorry Bystander.
(Frantically edits post)

I should learn to read before I write.
Last edited by Alrightmate : 26-09-2003 at 23:28

well swingaleg i'll try to explain my view about that.....

its not that she 'needs to know' about older music per se, its what that tells us about her - shes not much of a music fan, therefore... maybe, probably we can assume she doesnt have much awareness of who the current acts are either?

I cant agree with the opinion that cred is irrelevant in choice of presenter. The presenter, for any show, is the front and the public face of the show, so it has to be an important consideration.

1. They can have 'positive cred' - obviously desirable and the natural tendency as obviously is the overwhelming case....eg: motoring shows - people like Jeremy clarkson, Quentin wilson, etc; cookery shows - Delia, Antony W-T, etc ; Astronomy - Patrick moore...etc etc.....and Jon Tickle get asked to present on a science show........ is all not a coincidence methinks.
But its not essential....
2. ....in which case they can have 'neutral cred' - that is, eg for TOTP, they can get away with not actually knowing anything about the acts they are introducing, as long as they give the impression that they do and we can believe it.
In other words, a presenter can be a complete ignoramus about whatever it is they are presenting about, as long as we dont know that and it looks as if they do....
3. .....otherwise that becomes 'negative cred', which makes them a laughing stock. The presenter is the front, the public face of the show..... they dont have to have positive cred, they can get away with neutral cred....but if they lose cred then the show also loses cred, because we cant take them seriously anymore.

Many tv presenters get dropped for falling into 'negative cred' - eg;
Alistair stewart (Police, camera, action). ----> dropped after he was caught for drunk reckless driving = negative 'upright citizen' cred; John Lselie (This morning). ----> dropped after caught sniffing coke/ sex molester allegations = negative 'family appeal' cred; and etc other examples you can think of

I'd find Kate as TOTP presenter acceptable with 'neutral cred', coz she has a ladette image and we can believe that she is a regular yoof like the rest of us, with a regular interest and basic awareness of who's who in the current music scene.
But if she descends into negative cred by telling everyone eg " i never heard of famous bands X, Y or Z", then as the front she brings the show into disrepute.

for example. Kate as TOTP presenter introduces an act with a little biographical spiel about them, she needs to sound like she knows what she's talking about (even if she actually doesnt)
.....If she acquires negative music cred , then she stops becoming convincing, which risks alienating viewers who'll think, "pah whats she on about, she doesnt even know what shes talking about, this is so fake and plastic"...cue viewer turnoff. thats not likely gonna help the ratings.

My advice to her 'd be, if she is truly ignorant about music, she shouldnt shoot herself in the foot by making it apparent to everyone. Her Rise display of a pretty basic level of ignorance isnt widely known about, so as long as she keeps her mouth shut and nobody knows the truth, then she could well get away with it....


OK, this is my last contribution about this point of discussion. I hate making long posts anyways.... especially when i'm back from a few drinks
Its just what I think, and trying to explain my opinion. No one has to agree or gonna change their mind, thats ok by me....
i learn to accept the things i cannot change.....

Whatever, you do good long posts Marky and I enjoy them.

I'd have to agree that Kate would be an absolute disaster on TOTPs. Her presenting style could be surpassed by the average schoolchild with an interest in popular music, at least they wouldn't be squinting at autocue/clipboard for the name of the person they were introducing, they'd actually know who they are.

TOTPs has been living on borrowed time for many years now, the change of presenters instead of DJ's, the introduction of the Tube (those were the days) it's been downhill all the way since.

No music show continues to be a success unless there is a credible presenter.

The comment that TOTP's is more of a CBBC production is nearer the truth. Fearne Cotton is a children programme presenter. TOTP's has a childrens version on Saturday mornings, not alot different from the main show just a younger audience.

Marky

You keep them long posts coming.

I agree completely with you. I thought myself that she might have to introduce an act with a bit of intro.
The presenters often do that...They don't just say.."Here's Atomic Kitten"...and that's it.

If she say, introduced the new Chemical Brothers single with a bit of an introduction such as "The pioneers of bigbeat are back..."...we know that Kate Lawler is likely to say something on the end like.."...Whatever bigbeat is"...
(She assumes that nobody else knows either)

It's just that kind of thing that exposes her on RI:SE.
When she comes across something she doesn't know, she shows her ignorant attitude by scoffing, or sneering at it, as though she's thinking, that if she doesn't know, then not many other people will either...
She actually seems to think that it is an admirable attribute to show a lack of knowledge,.....she really does seem to think that.

It looks like a way for her to try and undermine knowledge by attacking it with ignorance and ridicule.
It really does sometimes appear that she actually thinks that people are as thick as her. So she doesn't realise that instead of people identifying with her comments,.they're actually laughing at her.

There's probably been a few TOTP presenters who didn't know that much about what they were talking about,..but they have probably hidden it well.
Kate is really bad at hiding her lack of knowledge. It appears like she is actually proud of it, and wants to shout to the world about it.
We've seen RI:SE,..so we've also seen how Kate can't resist just making comments that expose her stupidity and ignorance...On TOTP she'd probably read out something like. "Trip Hop", and shrug her shoulders pulling a mocking weird face, thinking it must be something to do with old people or sumpfink.

Another one on the damaged credibility list,.is Angus Deaton.
And spectacularly falling from grace, was the evangelical preacher Jimmy Swaggart.

thanks Alrightmate, u know i have to agree with all that

and you too, never mind bystander you keep them "amateur analysis" coming too...
coz they make a whole lot of sense....mighty fine!