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1080p retail stitch up
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MAW
08-09-2008
Quote:
“seemingly less capable than 1080i screens (generally it seems that SD material on 1080p screens is worse than the same material on 1080i screens).”

Er, here's some miseducation in action, sorry to single you out, but you've made my case. What is a 1080i screen? No such thing I'm afraid. You are using signal accepted and screen resolution in a freely exchangable manner, and they are not the same thing. As I said earlier, there are 1920x1080 (commonly known as 1080p) screens, which do not accept 1080p signals, most notably at 24FPS. Conversely there are HD ready screens, just 1366x768 commonly, which do accept 1080p signals, and deal with them correctly. The issue is further clouded in that the main reason for 1080p/24 is to avoid frame rate conversion judder, like you see on R1 DVDs on many current TVs, look at the scrolling credits, do they move smoothly or in jerks? If the internal processing of the TV is not appropriate for the signal, ie a multiple of 24 HZ, you simply reintroduce the judder. The PQ on SD discs and broadcasts is a completely separate issue. 1080i HD is deinterlaced to 1080p/25 for display, so sky is theoretically the same as Blu ray, except for the compression used to squeeze the signals for HD onto the satellite transponders. 576i broadcasts are a problem for 1080 res sets, also for 768 res sets, though marginally less so, as 576 is 1 dot of picture info for every 5 screen pixels, so your TV has to invent 4 dots out of 5 from this limited info. Now, if I were a Currys salesman, how do I impart this load to the average Sun reader? Not my problem I'm happy to say.
Nigel Goodwin
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“but "many" HD Ready TV's are not be sitting on the shelves right now - and "virtually none" will be sitting on the shelves by Xmas - this is not reflecting customer demand but is only reflecting what the retail industry want to sell
”

There are loads of HD Ready only sets on the shelves, and there will still be loads at Christmas, and probably next Christmas as well.

Manufacturers continually improve and upgrade sets, it's likely that eventually all sets will be 1080P - but where's the problem in that?.

Quote:
“
it's obvious (they haven't the wit to disguise it yet) and it's the Crime of the Century”

Only in your wild imagination
mossy2103
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“Thanks

And yet shelves are positively groaning with 1080p sets soley because Joe Public doesn't know what he's buying and so a very easy target for unscrupulous highway robbers

the law will step in at some point and crack down heavily

.”

And thanks for leaving out the most important part of my reply:

And 1080p screens are much more expensive than the equivalent 1080i screens. And as far as my experience goes, there are certainly many more 1080i screens on display at the big retailers than 1080p screens.
mossy2103
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by MAW:
“Er, here's some miseducation in action, sorry to single you out, but you've made my case. What is a 1080i screen? No such thing I'm afraid.”

Well, if you want to be a bit pedantic, no. And yes, I could have (should have) worded it much better.

But in the context of the post, I was quite obviously referring to TV DISPLAYS CAPABLE OF DISPLAYING A 1080p SOURCE AS 1080p (SUCH AS BLU-RAY) without getting into technicalities which could confuse.
Last edited by mossy2103 : 08-09-2008 at 15:20
AlosondroAlegré
08-09-2008
what an awesome thread. like a tramp shouting at traffic on the high street. you can see he's plainly disturbed and you shouldn't stare, yet it's too hypnotic to look away.
skinj
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“Thanks

And yet shelves are positively groaning with 1080p sets soley because Joe Public doesn't know what he's buying and so a very easy target for unscrupulous highway robbers

the law will step in at some point and crack down heavily

.”

What a load of absolute tosh you are blathering.
A 1080p (FullHD) will work with all the current standards of tv broadcasts from analogue, vcr, dvd,blu-ray, dvb, sky, freesat, cable, hddvd, blu-ray and anything else I have missed.
A customer will spend an amount that they feel they can justify. If during their purchasing process the fail to ask a question to give them an answer to something they don't know, that is their fault, not the retailers.
I assume that you would be happer for shops to sell non 1080p sets to the unsuspecting public only for the public to realise too late that they can't enjoy their latest ps3 or bu-ray purchase in all it's glory.
bishy
08-09-2008
@Alosondro,

Superbly summed up
JethroUK
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by skinj:
“..A customer will spend an amount that they feel they can justify....”

to do that they need to be informed

Originally Posted by skinj:
“..If during their purchasing process the fail to ask a question to give them an answer to something they don't know, that is their fault, not the retailers..”

that's quite wrong - not least because 'Joe' is not likely to know the questions to ask in the first place

'morally' - the retailer should not take advantage of 'Joe's lack of information to off-load £1,000,000's of 'tech' he neither wants nor needs

and if morality means nothing to them - they should be made to behave by the law (just like the building societies were) - and for sure they will be

Originally Posted by skinj:
“..I assume that you would be happer for shops to sell non 1080p sets....”

i would be happy if Joe was told that the barage of 1080p TV's he tripped over on the way in can only operate at 1080p with PS3, Xbox and Bluray (at which point he grunts - 'uh...wah') & that 1080p is unlikely to be broadcast for at least the remainder of his life. and that any of the other sets at half that price will work fine on his freeview box


.
GaryB
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“
i would be happy if Joe was told that the barage of 1080p TV's he tripped over on the way in can only operate at 1080p with PS3, Xbox and Bluray (at which point he grunts - 'uh...wah') & that 1080p is unlikely to be broadcast for at least the remainder of his life. and that any of the other sets at half that price will work fine on his freeview box
”

I suspect you're just trolling but I'll stick my reply in anyway.

The difference in cost now between a 1080p capable TV and a non 1080p TV is now very small and most people who do even a minimal amount of research wouldn't take the risk of buying a set that doesn't support 1080p. Most people spend that sort of money want to make sure that what they're buying is as future-proof as it can be.

I work for a TV manufacturer and a couple of years ago we launched an otherwise excellent high-end 46" TV, but it didn't support 1080p as the standard emerged while the set was still in development. The set didn't sell - most dealers said this was solely because it didn't support 1080p. Demand is consumer driven - not manufacturer or retailer driven.
ntlhellworld
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“AFAIK the only things currently supporting 1080p are bluray, xbox & PS3 (no broadcast material - just like old widescreen rip-off)”

Only because the UK is full of people like you. The japanese had a widescreen 1080 line analogue broadcast system in the 1980s.

-Chris
fastest finger
08-09-2008
Oh my God! I just bought a new car that does 160mph. But the speed limit is 70! l've been ripped off!!!

We should all take back our cars and demand ones that do 70mph, and nothng more!!
skinj
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“to do that they need to be informed



that's quite wrong - not least because 'Joe' is not likely to know the questions to ask in the first place

'morally' - the retailer should not take advantage of 'Joe's lack of information to off-load £1,000,000's of 'tech' he neither wants nor needs

and if morality means nothing to them - they should be made to behave by the law (just like the building societies were) - and for sure they will be



i would be happy if Joe was told that the barage of 1080p TV's he tripped over on the way in can only operate at 1080p with PS3, Xbox and Bluray (at which point he grunts - 'uh...wah') & that 1080p is unlikely to be broadcast for at least the remainder of his life. and that any of the other sets at half that price will work fine on his freeview box


.”

No. A Budget is a budget. Some people have a bit of flexability but will not spend more than they can afford or justify. You don't walk into a Garage and want to spend £3000 on a car and walk out spending £10000 without asking questions.
If a customer does not want/like a product, they generally will not buy it. If the salesperon seems pushy they will walk away.
Most sales people will tell the customer the benefits of a set such as this set is 1080p if the customer does not know what it means they should ask. If they do not ask how is the sales person to know that they are in the dark.

Builing societie were breaking the law by not explaing that the services they were seling did less than they were advertised. These set do exactly what they are advertised to do and exactly whet the spec's say they do, available in either brochures in store or on the manufacturers web site.

As some one esle has already said 1080p is something that the consumer is both asking for and wanting. Even after I explain exactly what it means 80-90% of the people through the door will still want it on their sets. The sales of non FullHD sets has fallen massivley in the last 8-10 months as people become more aware of what it means and what they can get from a FullHD set. As the demand from the consumer falls the manufacturers stop making the products. For example Panasonic have just pulled the 37lxd85 because people do not want/see the point of a non FullHD 37" lcd. It's called supply and demand. No demand=No supply.
JethroUK
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by GaryB:
“..I work for a TV manufacturer and a couple of years ago we launched an otherwise excellent high-end 46" TV, but it didn't support 1080p as the standard emerged while the set was still in development. The set didn't sell - most dealers said this was solely because it didn't support 1080p..”

Whilst i dont doubt that what the dealers 'said' - I very much doubt that's the actual reason

Originally Posted by GaryB:
“..Demand is consumer driven - not manufacturer or retailer driven.”

Sales can and are being driven by the retailer - it's transparently obvious & and hence my post
JethroUK
08-09-2008
Originally Posted by skinj:
“Most sales people will tell the customer the benefits of a set such as this set is 1080p”

"...and SkyHD are currently delivering it with Freesat on the horizon"

speil i got last weekend in Currys

Originally Posted by skinj:
“Builing societie were breaking the law by not explaing that the services they were seling did less than they were advertised”

spotted any similarities yet?

Originally Posted by skinj:
“..1080p is something that the consumer is both asking for and wanting.”

Not ever - you could stand in Currys alllllllllll day every day and nobody will come in asking/wanting 1080p - nobody - the bluray gang buy elsewhere anyhow

the only time 'Joe' asks is after he has already arrived & when he falls over 25 of em cluttering up the doorway

Originally Posted by skinj:
“..The sales of non FullHD sets has fallen massivley in the last 8-10 months”

it will do - you aren't allowed to buy one - Currys got em all in the basement waiting to go back

Originally Posted by skinj:
“..as people become more aware of what it means and what they can get from a FullHD set.”

If they haven't got bluray, etc they get zippo from investing in 1080p!!!!!!! so why on Earth would they 'demand' it?

Joe doesn't even know what bluray is - ergo he has never once wanted it and never will & to suggest otherwise is just a lie

Originally Posted by skinj:
“As the demand from the consumer falls the manufacturers stop making the products.”

So if Currys put all their non1080 TV's in the basement would it not result in the same - of course it would
Your statements are obvious but your reasoning is wrong - the reason 1080p sets are selling is solely because the retailer says so - Joe still dont need/want/demand it

Stand in the market place next weekend and see how many people know or care what 1080p is - you'll be lucky to find 'one' - yet 'most' of them have it on the TV they were 'sold' last weekend

.
fastest finger
08-09-2008
"Nurse! He's out of bed again!!!!"
chrisbartley
09-09-2008
How many times will the sales guy in currys/comet et al recommend the £2.99 scart cable over the £69 Monster one ?

Isn't that where Jethro is coming from ?

Retailers push/stock what there's the most margin in for them - not the customer.

and 1080 is clearly better than 720 - its a bigger number so its gotta be better

most of the readers here are clearly not going to fall for all this - but your average joe doesn't stand much of a chance

and remember some of the early 'joe' flat screen adopters who were bragging about their HD sets PQ yet in fact still watching SD souce - "but it says HD (ready) on the box, so it must be "
GaryB
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“Whilst i dont doubt that what the dealers 'said' - I very much doubt that's the actual reason ”

It was. The replacement set, which was very similar to the earlier model but was 1080p compatible, sold very well. In fact it's still on sale now.

Quote:
“Sales can and are being driven by the retailer - it's transparently obvious & and hence my post”

Well I'm in the trade and have been for over 20 years and i can tell you that isn't the way it works. Whilst some companies use sales Incentives to push a particular product, usually end of line or a slow seller, the mass market is driven by what the customer wants.

Think about it. if you're a manufacturer and you're going to commit hundreds of thousands of pounds on development of a model, what do you build:

A. Something you want to build because you like it.

or

B. Something you know will sell because that's what customers are demanding.

Your success or failure depends on getting it right. You choose.
Nigel Goodwin
09-09-2008
Bear in mind, many customers read magazines and reviews, and these all tell them how wonderful 1080P is - we gets lots of people coming in the shop wanting 1080P sets - and as you all know from this forum, many posters here are obsessed by it as well
roddydogs
09-09-2008
How many people buying Digital Cameras are using the amount of pixels as a yardstick-"Its got more pixels it must be better"?
JethroUK
09-09-2008
double post
JethroUK
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by GaryB:
“...Well I'm in the trade and have been for over 20 years and i can tell you that isn't the way it works.”

I've been specifically in 'Sales' for near 20 years - and i can tell you it works which ever way "we" wanted it to work

Tesco sell 50 flakes and 50 Kit-Kats per day

You put Cadbury Flakes on all checkouts and Kit-Kats at the back of the store on the 'bottom' shelf and Hey Presto!

Tesco now sell 500 flakes per day and maybe 5 Kit Kats - ifn you can find em

That aint "customer demand" & it aint rocket science - the retailer has virtually full control of what does/not sell
Electrical retail industry is stitching Joe up with 1080p even though he doesn't know what the hell it is
Deacon1972
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by chrisbartley:
“and remember some of the early 'joe' flat screen adopters who were bragging about their HD sets PQ yet in fact still watching SD souce - "but it says HD (ready) on the box, so it must be "”

Early adopters are normally the firsts to seek out and buy new technology and formats when it gets released and know what they are buying.

When the new technology first hits the streets it's very expensive, flat panel plasma was around £10k, so your average Joe is either not interested in it or can't afford it.

In addition to this it's not readily available in all high street stores, normally only found at dedicated dealers and specialist.

I believe the 1st generation panels if not the 2nd as well were not HD ready, they were only low resolution panels so only capable of showing SD, then the vast majority would have known that.

Now flat panel technology is about all you can buy this is where the confusion reigns, when it hits the masses.
JethroUK
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin:
“Bear in mind, many customers read magazines and reviews, and these all tell them how wonderful 1080P is - we gets lots of people coming in the shop wanting 1080P sets - and as you all know from this forum, many posters here are obsessed by it as well ”

that's fine - there is 'a limited market' for 1080p - it's just being rolled-out by retail industry disproportinately to demand (blu-ray owners, etc) and by Xmas 'Joe' will not be able to buy anything other

and it's a crime
rwr
09-09-2008
I just don't understand what the original argument is about here. If I go into a shop wanting a TV to watch HD, I'm likely going to be wanting to use as a source:

(1) Satellite, either Freesat or Sky
(2) A BD or HD-DVD player
(3) A PS3 or 360

Now, for option (1), its going to natively be outputting a 1080i signal, so I'd want a TV with a veritcal resolution of 1080, to avoid any further scaling in the TV
For option (2), it's going to be natively outputting 1080p, so again I want a TV with a vertical resolution of 1080, and preferably one that can cope with a 24fps too
For option (3), unless I'm wanting to use either machine to play HD-DVDs or BDs, there's arguably actually less need for 1080 since not very many games natively run at this resolution. Personally, however, I particularly like the 1080p output on the PS3 for browsing photos etc. Again though, there isn't really anything to be lost from a 1080 vertical resolution TV.

Note that I've been referring to a 1080 vertical resolution TV through this, rather than 1080i/1080p, since I'm not aware of a single TV with a 1080 vertical resolution that can't handle both types of input... and I think the whole argument has been quite confused about the phsyical resolution of the screen compared to the nature of the signal driving the TV.

But surely it boils down to the fact that if you want to watch HD TV, and you want to watch it in as high resolution as it is broadcast in (and avoid scaling), then you need a TV with 1080 vertical resolution, and these are effectively labelled in marketting terms as 1080p TVs. So, what's the issue with these being sold to people who want to watch HD?

Richard.
JethroUK
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by chrisbartley:
“.. your average joe doesn't stand much of a chance..

...remember some of the early 'joe' flat screen adopters who were bragging about their HD sets PQ yet in fact still watching SD souce - "but it says HD (ready) on the box, so it must be "”

quite so

and it was the same with wide-screen TV & with 'digital' TV & now with 1080p

they are exploiting Joes ignorance - when all he wants is a 'replacement TV'
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