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1080p retail stitch up
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fixerman
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“Thanks

And yet shelves are positively groaning with 1080p sets soley because Joe Public doesn't know what he's buying and so a very easy target for unscrupulous highway robbers

the law will step in at some point and crack down heavily

.”

I happened to be in a well known department store in Kingston (not John Lewis) and overheard a salesman telling a customer how much he would notice an improvement when he "upgraded" his 1080i tv to 1080p. The only source the customer was interested in was SKY.

Lack of product knowledge or miss-selling?
JethroUK
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by rwr:
“I just don't understand what the original argument is about here. If I go into a shop wanting a TV to watch HD, I'm likely going to be wanting to use as a source:....”

What 'you' do as an 'informed person' is whatever you want

but 'Joe' (90% of TV buying public) just want a TV - and the only thing he knows about source his when he puts it on his chips

as of Xmas he will not be allowed to buy anything other than 1080p set which he does not want or need

the public wants/needs should be representated on the shelves/stock/availabilty - not the other way aroung
GaryB
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“
as of Xmas he will not be allowed to buy anything other than 1080p set which he does not want or need
”

Who told you that? The manufacturer I work for has several 1080i models running well into next year.

It's a simple choice.

If you want 1080i, buy 1080i.

If you want to future proof your purchase, pay a bit extra and get 1080p.

I really don't see the issue, which is why I think the OP is just trolling.
mossy2103
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“ it's just being rolled-out by retail industry disproportinately to demand (blu-ray owners, etc) and by Xmas 'Joe' will not be able to buy anything other”

Except that there is little evidence to support that view (so obviously it is just an opinion based on little actual evidence), especially if you look at the ranges offered by many of the high-street shops now, and the online stores now.
rwr
09-09-2008
Ah, so the argument you were making was the people are being sold HD sets in general (not specifically 1080p ones), when they are just going to be watching SD. That kind of thing is indeed a problem - they'd be better off with a good SD CRT set really.

One key problem is that people want thin TVs, and thin TVs require (currently) LCD or plasma technology. And they tend to want big TVs. And cheap. All of which is going to mean a lot of disappointed customers, wondering why nothing looks as good as it used to.

Personally, I think there's a lot of mis-selling goes on in just selling things by numbers (it's a 1080p TV for £400!) rather than explaining any of the other complex issues. But that tends to be driven by ignorance rather than any willful desire to mis-sell, I suspect...
niall campbell
09-09-2008
i think hes been sold a timeshare in Spain and hates any form of salespeople!!

Why buy a bulb when a candle will suffice??
GaryB
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by niall campbell:
“i think hes been sold a timeshare in Spain and hates any form of salespeople!!

Why buy a bulb when a candle will suffice??”

As long as it's not a low energy fluorescent 1080p bulb
Gilbertoo
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“it will do - you aren't allowed to buy one - Currys got em all in the basement waiting to go back”

I've just been on Currys website. They have loads of HD Ready TV's available. Loads.

What are you blathering about?!?!?!

Why are people being forced to buy 1080P TV's?? They're NOT! If someone wants a new TV, they still have a choice of;

CRT (yes, some shops STILL sell them)
LCD (720 or 1080)
Plasma (720 or 1080)

All TV will soon be digital. When that occurs, an LCD or Plasma TV is the way to go. The fact that much of the TV's functionality may go unused for a while (maybe some will never use it) is irrelevant. It's simply there should the user want to use it...if they're uniformed, they won't use it. What's the problem????

By getting an LCD or Plasma, they are future-proofing themselves. Choice is still there!
mossy2103
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by rwr:
“Personally, I think there's a lot of mis-selling goes on in just selling things by numbers (it's a 1080p TV for £400!)”

Is there such a beast?
rwr
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by mossy2103:
“Is there such a beast?”

I don't think so, I was just trying to suggest that just selling TVs based on such limited criteria as the resolution and price is bound to end in trouble. I'm sure peope just aren't really aware of what the extra £s they might end up spending in a TV are buying them.
skinj
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by JethroUK:
“"...and SkyHD are currently delivering it with Freesat on the horizon"

speil i got last weekend in Currys



spotted any similarities yet?



Not ever - you could stand in Currys alllllllllll day every day and nobody will come in asking/wanting 1080p - nobody - the bluray gang buy elsewhere anyhow

the only time 'Joe' asks is after he has already arrived & when he falls over 25 of em cluttering up the doorway



it will do - you aren't allowed to buy one - Currys got em all in the basement waiting to go back



If they haven't got bluray, etc they get zippo from investing in 1080p!!!!!!! so why on Earth would they 'demand' it?

Joe doesn't even know what bluray is - ergo he has never once wanted it and never will & to suggest otherwise is just a lie



So if Currys put all their non1080 TV's in the basement would it not result in the same - of course it would
Your statements are obvious but your reasoning is wrong - the reason 1080p sets are selling is solely because the retailer says so - Joe still dont need/want/demand it

Stand in the market place next weekend and see how many people know or care what 1080p is - you'll be lucky to find 'one' - yet 'most' of them have it on the TV they were 'sold' last weekend

.”

http://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/cat...sort/price_asc

On this list there are 8 sets that are not FullHD. Funny how they are STILL advertising them isn't it.
If you have never heard a customer go into a shop and ask for a FullHD set or a 1080p set you are not listening properly. 50-60% of all the customers coming in for a set are asking us for it.
A building society was selling a product that did not do what they said it would. The shops are selling sets that do 1080p, they do 1080p therefore are not being mis-sold.

Currys are far more likely to sell the set at a very low margin than they are to send them back to the manufacturer. a, because they want to make a profit & b, because they have recently p*ssed off a lot of the manufacturers and would not be able to send them back.
To state that they are hiding them in a basement is just bizarre. Especially as storage space is so costly.
Stand in a market place and explain what 1080p is and more people would be p*ssed off that their new set didn't do it, than those that did.
Deacon1972
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by mossy2103:
“Is there such a beast?”

I believe the Sony KDL32V4000 is 1080p and can be found for £433.

http://www.electrosaver.co.uk/produc...tid=KDL32V4000

Prices now for 1080 generally start around £500

Goes to show consumers are not paying a premium for upto date technology or being forced to buy it.

There are plenty of HD ready TV's that are more expensive (same screen size).

Are consumers being ripped off, of course not.
mossy2103
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by rwr:
“I don't think so, I was just trying to suggest that just selling TVs based on such limited criteria as the resolution and price is bound to end in trouble. I'm sure peope just aren't really aware of what the extra £s they might end up spending in a TV are buying them.”

Yes, that is a valid point - and as always "you get what you pay for"
Gilbertoo
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by mossy2103:
“Except that there is little evidence to support that view (so obviously it is just an opinion based on little actual evidence), especially if you look at the ranges offered by many of the high-street shops now, and the online stores now.”

Exactly! To suggest that "by xmas", only 1080P screens will be available must surely already be incorrect, given that the XMAS shopping season has already begun....

...hey folks, 106 days to go before christmas! Be sure to snap up non-1080p TV's whilst you can!!!
mossy2103
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“I believe the Sony KDL32V4000 is 1080p and can be found for £433.

http://www.electrosaver.co.uk/produc...tid=KDL32V4000”

There seems to be some misinformation on some of the sites, this one sates 1080p

http://www.hcsdirect.co.uk/catalog/p...oducts_id/2427

Whilst this one states 1080i (quite possibly taken from the Sony site)

http://digitechelectronics.com/model.php?ID=3335


And the official Sony webpage states 1080i - so I guess that it's capable of displaying 1080 interlaced rather than profressive.
skinj
09-09-2008
Even after we pianstakingly explain to people that they do not need a FullHD set you'd be suprised how many people still want it. Mainly because they want to, to be ready if they do buy a PS3 or Blu-Ray. Even then the image on a 1080 set, sat next to a non 1080 when running freeview is still a little better.
scrads
09-09-2008
What are you on? Retailers dont just wait around for technology to happen, they pre-empt it. As for no need of HD in the average consumers life time...(Didnt know there were people who could see the future/had a time machine.) What do you think broadcasters will do with all the spectrum released after they switch off the analogue signals?
There has already been a small scale test of Freeview HD with a view to national coverage after or around 2012. Therefore to make sure everyone has the correct equipment to recieve such signals in the future they are selling it now! How often does your average person replace their tv, i bet its in the region of once every 10 years so makes sense to include the technology now when there is already a need to upgrade due to the switch over and also HDMI as scart will be redundant in 3-5 years time.

As an ex-employee of the DSG group I have an inside knowledge of the industry that you, sir, are definately lacking yet believe you have! With the majority of the yearly sales made in the run up to xmas and with no major sporting event next year then your prediction of 1080 only tvs AFTER xmas is blantantly flawed and idiotic!

With regard to the miss-selling, yes there maybe some employees that are not 100% up on the technology but there is regular training and checks made to make sure that the correct ADVICE is being given. Ever heard of a Mystery Shopper?

The fact is that retailers do not simply just remove items from sale for the sake of doing so. They keep them on display at reduced prices to make room for new updated products or ones that there is demand for. Any major change in avaibility in the next year is going to be consumer lead not dealer as they have no incentive to do so after christmas!
Deacon1972
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by mossy2103:
“There seems to be some misinformation on some of the sites, this one sates 1080p

http://www.hcsdirect.co.uk/catalog/p...oducts_id/2427

Whilst this one states 1080i (quite possibly taken from the Sony site)

http://digitechelectronics.com/model.php?ID=3335


And the official Sony webpage states 1080i - so I guess that it's capable of displaying 1080 interlaced rather than profressive.”

I did query the link at first as it advertised the set as only HD ready, but reading the specs it stated 1080p.

We'd better keep quiet otherwise there be a new thread appearing " The Online Retailer Rip Off".

I think realistically £500-£600 would be what you'd expect to be paying for 1080 entry models even from the market leaders, again there are still plenty of HD ready sets more expensive. So I still can't see the consumer being ripped off.
Colin V
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by skinj:
“Even after we pianstakingly explain to people that they do not need a FullHD set you'd be suprised how many people still want it. Mainly because they want to, to be ready if they do buy a PS3 or Blu-Ray. Even then the image on a 1080 set, sat next to a non 1080 when running freeview is still a little better.”

I'm looking to buy HD soon, and read this forum every lunchtime (thanks Nigel). I was in Currys on Saturday acting dumb, which isn't too difficult. Although I thought I knew the answer I asked what would be better for me, plain HD ready or 1080p. The salesman asked if I currently view DVDs and in truth I answered no. His reply was "well never mind if you go for 1080p you will then want Blu-ray to make the most of it."

Surely the correct response should have been that I didn't need 1080p.

I had already told him that I didn't watch DVDs so why would I watch Blu-ray? I am 60 and I took it as a blatant attempt to separate me from my money.
Deacon1972
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by Colin V:
“
I had already told him that I didn't watch DVDs so why would I watch Blu-ray? I am 60 and I took it as a blatant attempt to separate me from my money.”

As already pointed out, there are plenty of HD ready only TV's with the same screen size that are more expensive than some 1080 TV's.

Why assume you are being ripped off just because the TV that was being recommended was 1080.

Would you have been happier if they had recommended the model next to it which was more expensive but only had 768 resolution?

If 1080 TV's were the most expensive sets available and they were being pushed on to the consumer then the OP would have a valid point, but they are not.
Orbitalzone
09-09-2008
God this is shocking news isn't it?! - consumer electronic companies releasing new products that have initial limited use?! - could it be that they're just making new products to make older ones obsolete and drive sales - that's criminal!

The same arguements can be applied to almost every consumer electronics 'new thing'

such as:
colour tv replacing black and white, limited choice to start with.
BSB - offering capability of widescreen RGB signals back in 1990..... most viewers watched via RF or composite video.
Widescreen TV - launched with limited widescreen sources but many european countries had showed letterboxed films way before widescreen TV's existed.
DVD over VHS, limited choice, expensive and non recordable to start with.
SkyHD, relatively expensive compared to non HD Sky, required HD tv to fully appreciate service.

and the list goes on and on.

So you could argue that selling 1080p with 24fps is making things a bit more future proof..... how do those earlier adoptors of plasma screens feel that their 480line panels offer less than standard definition TV's plus they cost £1000's


And the point was?


I await to have every aspect of my hurried post be picked to pieces... infact I'll admit I'm wrong now and just save some more trolling.
Deacon1972
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by Orbitalzone:
“

And the point was?”

There isn't one.
bobcar
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by rwr:
“Note that I've been referring to a 1080 vertical resolution TV through this, rather than 1080i/1080p, since I'm not aware of a single TV with a 1080 vertical resolution that can't handle both types of input... and I think the whole argument has been quite confused about the phsyical resolution of the screen compared to the nature of the signal driving the TV.”

Many older TVs with 1080 line resolution used to only accept 1080i inputs. Nowadays 1080p input is becoming commonplace including for TVs without a 1080 line panel.

Quote:
“But surely it boils down to the fact that if you want to watch HD TV, and you want to watch it in as high resolution as it is broadcast in (and avoid scaling), then you need a TV with 1080 vertical resolution, and these are effectively labelled in marketting terms as 1080p TVs. So, what's the issue with these being sold to people who want to watch HD?

Richard.”

The issue is that for many people (maybe even most) the full 1080 line panel will not result in any improvement. It all depends on how close you sit to it and and how big the TV is. Unless you sit close enough to the screen then you are better off not getting a full 1080 TV but spending the money on a better quality one instead.

You get people with a 32" screen watching from 10' and insisting on a 1080 panel when in fact they don't even need HD, an SD set if they could get one would be fine. At 10' you would need in excess of a 50" TV for 1080 to be worthwhile.

I think this was maybe what Jethro was really getting at and in this respect I would agree with him. There seems to be a common misconception that full HD 1080p is "the best" and I think that is because resolution is such a simple concept and other factors are harder to grasp.
rwr
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by bobcar:
“Many older TVs with 1080 line resolution used to only accept 1080i inputs. Nowadays 1080p input is becoming commonplace including for TVs without a 1080 line panel..”

Sorry should have made clear that I was thinking about the current generation of "HD Ready" & "Full HD" TVs.

Originally Posted by bobcar:
“I think this was maybe what Jethro was really getting at and in this respect I would agree with him. There seems to be a common misconception that full HD 1080p is "the best" and I think that is because resolution is such a simple concept and other factors are harder to grasp.”

Yes, I totally agree that the 1080p is overstressed compared to the many other factors affecting picture quality.

Perhaps if we'd skipped the "HD Ready" stage and moved straight onto "Full HD" then we'd have saved this whole mess anyway, and just had the market standardised on one resolution that actually matched what was being broadcast, and available on BD... I really think the industry has shot itself in the foot to an extent by jumping the gun to get HD TVs out whilst 1080p panels were seen as too expensive.
fixerman
09-09-2008
Originally Posted by rwr:
“Sorry should have made clear that I was thinking about the current generation of "HD Ready" & "Full HD" TVs.



Yes, I totally agree that the 1080p is overstressed compared to the many other factors affecting picture quality.

Perhaps if we'd skipped the "HD Ready" stage and moved straight onto "Full HD" then we'd have saved this whole mess anyway, and just had the market standardised on one resolution that actually matched what was being broadcast, and available on BD... I really think the industry has shot itself in the foot to an extent by jumping the gun to get HD TVs out whilst 1080p panels were seen as too expensive.”


Well said rwr! I think your contribution just about sums up this whole debate.
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