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Blue Ray Gone by 2012?
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M. Tourette
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by linkinpark875:
“I agree.

Things like digital photo frames, portable computers have never really took off.

Everything seems to be going computer but they are unreliable my first PVR lost all my recordings about 20 times. If anything goes wrong with my HD box sky would need to replace it and everything is lost.”


I thought you were taking the pi$$, but I actually think you mean this quote.
Do you really believe portable computers have not taken off?
Laptops, Mobile phones that receive email have web browsers and sat nav, are these not portable computers?
linkinpark875
22-09-2008
I have a 32" LCD out of interest why do people find HD better on these big screens? I found SD on my LCD with Freeview looks the same as Sony TV's that are about 42". Surely the only good point of a big LCD is being able to sit further back and viewing the detail so they are only good for a main room.

What I did notice was the difference in bit rates between channels. Being honest you need to sit close up to notice the pixelization on a LCD.

Originally Posted by M. Tourette:
“I thought you were taking the pi$$, but I actually think you mean this quote.
Do you really believe portable computers have not taken off?
Laptops, Mobile phones that receive email have web browsers and sat nav, are these not portable computers?”

No I don't mean Laptops or mobile phones this technology is very much useful. I mean those small computers with keyboards in the late 90's and the PDA's.
Alphonse
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“Why are you assuming the signal would not be shown correctly.

Component is well capable of carrying high resolution signals.

Sky HD has HDMI and component outputs for HD.”

Didn't Murdoch decide to crucify all the component outputs on SKY HD boxes via a nasty little update a while ago. Something about an attempt to stop people copying HD content on to DVD via the box's component outputs which don't support DRM.

I remember reading the threads of angry bile from people with first generation LCD and plasma screens who could only connect their SKY HD boxes using component.
underwaterbilly
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“Sorry that's nonsense.

The bitrate has been reduced because the new encoders are more efficient, they can now stack four channels on a single transponer without degrading picture quality.

Sky used to pump out 20Mbit/s for a single channel, they can now have three on one transponder, there is no difference in picture quality, in fact there are comments saying it looks even better. MPEG4 compression is that good.”

I would not go so far as to say the HD quality is equal to that of SD Freeview but the quality of HD from some of the Sky HD channels is not very good compared to Bluray.

The Premier movie channel often looked on par with the upscaled SD from C4HD last time I watched it

The new encoders may work on paper but they dont to my eyes
Nigel Goodwin
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“OK, assuming this is correct, why couldn't the UK have analogue HD?”

Apply a little common sense - why doesn't the UK have twenty analogue terrestrial channels? - because there's no room!.

The band plan for the entire country was based on four analogue SD channels (CH5 was a bodged on addition, never planned for, which is why it only has limited coverage).

I somehow doubt turning off all the current analogue channels and replacing them by a single HD channel would go down too well

It's only going digital that makes multiple channels practical, with the 'possibility' of HD - and even at that there's no room for it, with SD quality going to be sacrificed to add a small number of HD channels.
Deacon1972
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“Didn't Murdoch decide to crucify all the component outputs on SKY HD boxes via a nasty little update a while ago. Something about an attempt to stop people copying HD content on to DVD via the box's component outputs which don't support DRM.

I remember reading the threads of angry bile from people with first generation LCD and plasma screens who could only connect their SKY HD boxes using component.”

It was an agreement with the movie studios when Sky first launch HD.

At that time there was no HD ready standard, HDMI was not present on all TV's. They agreed not to restrict the HD resolution over component as there would be customers with TV's capable of receiving HD but had no HDMI.

This agreement has lasted two years, now the new boxes are starting to arrive, this time component has been left off, but all other boxes will be able to still receive HD over component for the foreseeable future.
underwaterbilly
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“OK, so I haven't got the Blu-ray equipment to do a specific visual test, but I've downloaded Blu-ray rips of Casino Royale and Transformers both at 720p. CR was 8GB, and Transformers was 2.5GB, both in MKV format.

I plugged my PC into the HDMI socket of my plasma, and was blown away by the picture and sound quality of both films despite the difference in file size. I don't care about having anything better than what that gave me. It was miles ahead of those same films on standard def DVD played through my upscaler.

Now, my broadband speed isn't great at 4MB, but I downloaded Transformers over two nights using my off peak allowance. Casino Royale was a few more nights, but the age of Blu-ray quality downloads is already here.”

As the Casino Royale Bluray disc is either 25Gb or 50Gb I doubt very much whether your download would compare.

And I did say that what wasnt here yet was the ability to have HD without leaving the PC on a for a week - which is exactly what you had to do.

If people are going to be asked to pay for downloads instead of discs they want the film in minutes not days.
linkinpark875
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin:
“Apply a little common sense - why doesn't the UK have twenty analogue terrestrial channels? - because there's no room!.

The band plan for the entire country was based on four analogue SD channels (CH5 was a bodged on addition, never planned for, which is why it only has limited coverage).

I somehow doubt turning off all the current analogue channels and replacing them by a single HD channel would go down too well

It's only going digital that makes multiple channels practical, with the 'possibility' of HD - and even at that there's no room for it, with SD quality going to be sacrificed to add a small number of HD channels.”

Assuming they did have one HD channel on analogue not sure it'is technically possible because terrestrial tv doesn't have HDMI and is the video encoding not different surely they can't put HD on to analogue even if there was room?
Alphonse
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin:
“Apply a little common sense - why doesn't the UK have twenty analogue terrestrial channels? - because there's no room!.

The band plan for the entire country was based on four analogue SD channels (CH5 was a bodged on addition, never planned for, which is why it only has limited coverage).

I somehow doubt turning off all the current analogue channels and replacing them by a single HD channel would go down too well

It's only going digital that makes multiple channels practical, with the 'possibility' of HD - and even at that there's no room for it, with SD quality going to be sacrificed to add a small number of HD channels.”

I bow to your superior knowledge, Nigel

Just a quick question. Once all analogue channels are turned off, and SD Freeview has had it's knackers squeezed until it's barely watchable, just how many HD channels will there be room for?

A ballpark figure will be fine.
underwaterbilly
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Scooterwolf:
“As soon as Blu-ray starts to drop in price, sales will increase. As above I would say the January sales onwards will be a big boost to the market. Aswell as a probable price drop in the PS3 in the first few months of 2009.”


I disagree and I buy Bluray.

Apart from about 10 UK discs all mine come from the US and I pay between £8 and £12 delivered which is often cheaper than the UK dvd yet I dont forsee any quick jump in the market.

While the PS3 will do for us techheads who want HD Joe Public wont be wanting a games console - especially one as ugly as the PS3 to watch films.

The jump from DVD to HD is nothing compared to the jump from VHS to DVD and for many people who will also need an HD tv its simply not worth it.

As with the war between HD formats - the Bluray v DVD market will be fought by film titles.

Until there are some killer titles out there its of little interest.

I think the arrival of 007 on Bluray will move a few units but Sony have made the mistake of re-releasing all the films on dvd but only giving us 6 in HD
A Bluray boxset of all 21 films could have been the must have Xmas prezzie for movie fans
Deacon1972
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by underwaterbilly:
“I would not go so far as to say the HDS quality is equal to that of SD Freeview but the quality of HD from some of the Sky HD channels is not very good compared to Bluray.

The Premier movie channel often looked on par with the upscaled SD from C4HD last time I watched it

The new encoders may work on paper but they dont to my eyes”

HD equal to SD freeview?

Broadcast HD will never compete with Bluray, even if the put a single channel on a transponder and output at max bitrate it would still be miles off what Bluray outputs over disc. Bluray is certainly not miles ahead in picture quality, some transfers do look stunning but others can look no better than those on Sky HD.

It's all down to the master and transfer.

And yes, the encoders do work, and work well, if they didn't the forums would be swamped with members compalining, as they are doing at the moment with the quality of the BBC HD channel.
linkinpark875
22-09-2008
Perhaps HD exclusive channels would help Sky HD they have one at the moment Rush HD plus BBC HD has it's own schedule compared to other BBC channels?
Alphonse
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by underwaterbilly:
“As the Casino Royale Bluray disc is either 25Gb or 50Gb I doubt very much whether your download would compare.”

I think both our statements hit the nail on the head about why Blu-ray hasn't taken off.

Aside from the price tag, it offers far more in terms of picture quality than what is demanded necessary by the vast majority of consumers.

To be honest, if anyone says that a 2 hour Blu-ray film compressed down to 2.5GB isn't plenty good enough to watch on a 42" or bigger screen without the need for vastly expensive new player equipment, they need putting up against a wall.
underwaterbilly
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“HD equal to SD freeview?

Broadcast HD will never compete with Bluray, but Bluray is certainly not miles ahead in picture quality, some transfers do look stunning but others can look no better than those on Sky HD.

It's all down to the master and transfer.

And yes, the encoders do work, and work well, if they didn't the forums would be swamped with members compalining, as they are doing at the moment with the quality of the BBC HD channel.”

I never said that HD was on par with SD Freeview- I was answering someone who claimed that (please keep up)

I've watched the Sky Premier channel and its rare to see jump out at you HD like you do on other HD channels.

And if you cant tell its HD whats the point?

The encoders dont work in my eyes.

I'vd noticed a drop in quality on Premier which was the first to use them - and I'm not sure what others are using them now but I'm not surprised that there are no complaints - everyone shelling out £10 a month will use the excuses you do - the master and transfer etc.

If I got a Bluray where I couldnt tell it was HD instantly I'd take it back and keep the dvd
Deacon1972
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“
To be honest, if anyone says that a 2 hour Blu-ray film compressed down to 2.5GB isn't plenty good enough to watch on a 42" or bigger screen without the need for vastly expensive new player equipment, they need putting up against a wall. ”

I don't want to spend two days downloading a movie that will be inferior to the one I can get over the counter pretty much when I want.

Do these downloads carry Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA audio?

I would have thought not considering the tiny file size.

I'll pass thanks.
Jarrak
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“
Just a quick question. Once all analogue channels are turned off, and SD Freeview has had it's knackers squeezed until it's barely watchable, just how many HD channels will there be room for?

A ballpark figure will be fine. ”





Three

The shuffling of the SD channels combined with the new DVB-T2 and mpeg4 boxes will allow only 3 HD channels and they are likely to go to the BBC, ITV and CH4.

There will be no new DTT muxes, the new capacity will be auctioned off and we are probably talking Billions for a nationwide MUX and no UK broadcaster even SKY can afford that but Mobile phone companies will be very interested.
Deacon1972
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by underwaterbilly:
“I never said that HD was on par with SD Freeview- I was answering someone who claimed that (please keep up)”

You quoted me, it's you that needs to keep up. Learn to reply and use the quote tags properly.
Alphonse
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Jarrak:
“Three

The shuffling of the SD channels combined with the new DVB-T2 and mpeg4 boxes will allow only 3 HD channels and they are likely to go to the BBC, ITV and CH4.

There will be no new DTT muxes, the new capacity will be auctioned off and we are probably talking Billions for a nationwide MUX and no UK broadcaster even SKY can afford that but Mobile phone companies will be very interested.”

So it's quite possible that if and when Freeview becomes unwatchable due to low bitrate, as quite a few of the channels are now on LCD and plasma eg ITV 4, Setanta, and analogue is no more, that we'll be left with only three free to air channels?

Jeez, it'll be like going back to the 1970's.
Jarrak
22-09-2008
Anyone who visits this particular part of DS probably knows my opinion of Blu-ray and by extension HD DVD and broadcast HD

That said I have to admit the exchange bumping US prices up combined with what seems to me a slight increase in prices from UK online dealers (not even going to comment on high street prices) for cat A releases has me turning my back on Blu-ray.

I've recently bought 4 Blu-ray TV boxsets, only a slight premium over their DVD counterparts and I consider them worth every penny but some of the prices for new movies are ridiculous.
Unfortunately the Blu-ray market is in a mess, it simply has not been embraced to a degree that makes lower media prices worthwhile and the PS3 has seriously damaged the standalone player values. This leaves the market more than happy to sell less at higher prices in the manner of Laserdisc and that means a shorter shelf life for the format and no real effort to replace DVD in terms of price.

For me personally I want physical media, I've got a few songs via itunes etc but at the end of the day price wise the CD is no more expensive if you shop around and TV shows via download are no cheaper than the proper DVD.
Same is going to apply to HD and we are still left with the Broadband network being able to cope which can put a stop to mass market IP distribution at a stroke.
Jarrak
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“So it's quite possible that if and when Freeview becomes unwatchable due to low bitrate, as quite a few of the channels are now on LCD and plasma eg ITV 4, Setanta, and analogue is no more, that we'll be left with only three free to air channels?

Jeez, it'll be like going back to the 1970's.”



Glass half full but I can not see DTT broadcasts getting any better and more likely to get worse unless the whole platform moves to mpeg4 which isn't going to happen.
So as most of us here want HD for our HD screens then you can argue that only 3 DTT channels will provide the quality required and perhaps maybe only 1 or 2 more on Dsat.
MAW
22-09-2008
Blu ray will never be mainstream, Sony's whole strategy is based around premium pricing. They will milk it for all it's worth till downloads become viable. I'm an installer, I don't own a Blu player, I'm investing in NAS instead.
linkinpark875
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by MAW:
“Blu ray will never be mainstream, Sony's whole strategy is based around premium pricing. They will milk it for all it's worth till downloads become viable. I'm an installer, I don't own a Blu player, I'm investing in NAS instead.”

What's stopping Goodmans and others launching some kind of HD player? What's to stop them using Blu Ray technology? I thought the movie deal only covers the high def DVD's?
Alphonse
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Jarrak:
“Glass half full but I can not see DTT broadcasts getting any better and more likely to get worse unless the whole platform moves to mpeg4 which isn't going to happen.
So as most of us here want HD for our HD screens then you can argue that only 3 DTT channels will provide the quality required and perhaps maybe only 1 or 2 more on Dsat.”

I will always remember a first season episode of Star Trek: TNG where the Enterprise rescues cryogenically frozen people from the 20th Century. One of them asks Picard where he can watch a tube. All the crew are perplexed until Data realises the man is talking about television. Data explains what a television is and then tells than man that it ceased to be used on Earth after early on in the 21st century.

If we're going back to the dark days of three free to air channels, I can see the above happening. I can't believe though that electronics manufacturers appear to have been so short sighted, that in their will to develop new technology in order to make money, they may end up destroying the demand for that same technology.
linkinpark875
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Alphonse:
“If we're going back to the dark days of three free to air channels, I can see the above happening. I can't believe though that electronics manufacturers appear to have been so short sighted, that in their will to develop new technology in order to make money, they may end up destroying the demand for that same technology.”

I'm sure there was talk a few years back about people upgrading to 28" CRT's that they only had a 5 year lifespan built in.
underwaterbilly
22-09-2008
Originally Posted by Deacon1972:
“You quoted me, it's you that needs to keep up. Learn to reply and use the quote tags properly.”


I'd still like to know where I said that SD Freeview was on par with HD
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