modeltramman

Alan Hardman · 27-09-2008, 13:29

I have noted that Belkin are introducing a HDMI Router in October. However the opening price will be quite lumpy. However my question is: Does any one know why the Virgin+ Box eliminates the scart socket if you use the HDMI connection, and is there know way round this at present?
I must point out that i am not a tech wizard, in fact just the opposite.

Nigel Goodwin · 27-09-2008, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Hardman

I have noted that Belkin are introducing a HDMI Router in October. However the opening price will be quite lumpy. However my question is: Does any one know why the Virgin+ Box eliminates the scart socket if you use the HDMI connection, and is there know way round this at present?

Presumably just that the V+ is very poorly designed?, and as it's never been corrected, presumably it's a hardware design issue, and not a software upgrade problem.

Alan Hardman · 29-09-2008, 16:04

Thanx for info' will just have to wait for a reasonable priced HDMI Router to become available.
Being a senior citizen i have to use a router to receive pictures in my kitchen for the wifes benefit but of course in the meantime we are loosing out on the Hi-Def picture.
Regards, Alan Hardman (modeltramman)

LCDMAN · 29-09-2008, 20:52

It's very straightforward really, that's how it is designed and how it is forced to be!

The only way to get HD out of a V+ (or Sky HD as well now) box is via HDMI (no component output), the SCART doesn't carry HD at all. Under the HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) rules relating to rights/content protection of HD signals, you can only convey HDCP protected HD signals via a digital connection which allows for HDCP to be enabled - thus HDMI only and SCART (or component) disabled. When HDCP enabled/encrypted HD signals are being used then ONLY the HDMI output can be enabled. Them's the rules imposed by the HDMI/HDCP licensing authorities at the behest of the US film studios and TV producers so you can't easily make HD copies.

The same applies to the video processing equipment I design/play with. If we have HDCP protected HD signals coming into our boxes then we can only enable the HDMI output (non of the analog ones at all) Even then the HDMI output can only be enabled if it has a HDCP compliant device connected (as confirmed by the EDID packets we receive from the connected device). The same applies to the professional HD-SDI signals we use in preference to the horrid consumer HDMI lash-up.

Nigel Goodwin · 30-09-2008, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCDMAN

It's very straightforward really, that's how it is designed and how it is forced to be!

The only way to get HD out of a V+ (or Sky HD as well now) box is via HDMI (no component output), the SCART doesn't carry HD at all. Under the HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) rules relating to rights/content protection of HD signals, you can only convey HDCP protected HD signals via a digital connection which allows for HDCP to be enabled - thus HDMI only and SCART (or component) disabled. When HDCP enabled/encrypted HD signals are being used then ONLY the HDMI output can be enabled.

I think you've missed the point?, on a Sky HD box the SCART is fully functional at all times, as is HDMI (and S-Video, and RF) - on the V+ you can only have one or the other, never both.

The limitation on the V+ doesn't look to be anything to do with HDCP.

LCDMAN · 30-09-2008, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

I think you've missed the point?, on a Sky HD box the SCART is fully functional at all times, as is HDMI (and S-Video, and RF) - on the V+ you can only have one or the other, never both.

The limitation on the V+ doesn't look to be anything to do with HDCP.

But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug.

New Sky HD boxes don't have a component output now, as that could carry HD. Sky used to "get round" the HDCP "digital o/p only" rules by saying they have an encryption system of their own and that any recorded programmes are not held as video but raw, encrypted, data. Seems something has changed in this argument/ruling/agreement for the component o/p to be dropped.

bobcar · 30-09-2008, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCDMAN

But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug.

The point is that you can't get SD out of the V+ SCART if you have HDMI enabled so whether its a bug or a "design feature" it must be a pain for many people. The rationale behind it being a "design feature seems a little strange.

Nigel Goodwin · 30-09-2008, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCDMAN

But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug.

Obvously you don't get HD except via HDMI and (previously) component - but this has no bearing on the limitations of the V+ box.

Quote:

New Sky HD boxes don't have a component output now, as that could carry HD. Sky used to "get round" the HDCP "digital o/p only" rules by saying they have an encryption system of their own and that any recorded programmes are not held as video but raw, encrypted, data. Seems something has changed in this argument/ruling/agreement for the component o/p to be dropped.

Nothing has changed at all, and it was never anything to do with information been held on the disk encrypted - it was always known, from well before launch of Sky HD, that the Component sockets would be removed from later production. Also, that it was a possibility that the existing ones may be disabled in a later update - they were there only for legacy reasons, because many HDTV's only had Component sockets (HDMI was still too new).

The trade was generally surprised how long the Component sockets continued on production though, most people thought 12 months was about all it would last before they were removed.

27-09-2008, 13:29	#1
Alan Hardman Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2	modeltramman I have noted that Belkin are introducing a HDMI Router in October. However the opening price will be quite lumpy. However my question is: Does any one know why the Virgin+ Box eliminates the scart socket if you use the HDMI connection, and is there know way round this at present? I must point out that i am not a tech wizard, in fact just the opposite.

29-09-2008, 16:04	#3
Alan Hardman Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2	Nigel Goodwin Thanx for info' will just have to wait for a reasonable priced HDMI Router to become available. Being a senior citizen i have to use a router to receive pictures in my kitchen for the wifes benefit but of course in the meantime we are loosing out on the Hi-Def picture. Regards, Alan Hardman (modeltramman)

27-09-2008, 14:38	#2
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by Alan Hardman I have noted that Belkin are introducing a HDMI Router in October. However the opening price will be quite lumpy. However my question is: Does any one know why the Virgin+ Box eliminates the scart socket if you use the HDMI connection, and is there know way round this at present? Presumably just that the V+ is very poorly designed?, and as it's never been corrected, presumably it's a hardware design issue, and not a software upgrade problem.

29-09-2008, 20:52	#4
LCDMAN Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Yorkshire, God's County Posts: 5,182	It's very straightforward really, that's how it is designed and how it is forced to be! The only way to get HD out of a V+ (or Sky HD as well now) box is via HDMI (no component output), the SCART doesn't carry HD at all. Under the HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) rules relating to rights/content protection of HD signals, you can only convey HDCP protected HD signals via a digital connection which allows for HDCP to be enabled - thus HDMI only and SCART (or component) disabled. When HDCP enabled/encrypted HD signals are being used then ONLY the HDMI output can be enabled. Them's the rules imposed by the HDMI/HDCP licensing authorities at the behest of the US film studios and TV producers so you can't easily make HD copies. The same applies to the video processing equipment I design/play with. If we have HDCP protected HD signals coming into our boxes then we can only enable the HDMI output (non of the analog ones at all) Even then the HDMI output can only be enabled if it has a HDCP compliant device connected (as confirmed by the EDID packets we receive from the connected device). The same applies to the professional HD-SDI signals we use in preference to the horrid consumer HDMI lash-up.

30-09-2008, 13:05	#5
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by LCDMAN It's very straightforward really, that's how it is designed and how it is forced to be! The only way to get HD out of a V+ (or Sky HD as well now) box is via HDMI (no component output), the SCART doesn't carry HD at all. Under the HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) rules relating to rights/content protection of HD signals, you can only convey HDCP protected HD signals via a digital connection which allows for HDCP to be enabled - thus HDMI only and SCART (or component) disabled. When HDCP enabled/encrypted HD signals are being used then ONLY the HDMI output can be enabled. I think you've missed the point?, on a Sky HD box the SCART is fully functional at all times, as is HDMI (and S-Video, and RF) - on the V+ you can only have one or the other, never both. The limitation on the V+ doesn't look to be anything to do with HDCP.

30-09-2008, 15:13	#6
LCDMAN Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Yorkshire, God's County Posts: 5,182	Quote: Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin I think you've missed the point?, on a Sky HD box the SCART is fully functional at all times, as is HDMI (and S-Video, and RF) - on the V+ you can only have one or the other, never both. The limitation on the V+ doesn't look to be anything to do with HDCP. But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug. New Sky HD boxes don't have a component output now, as that could carry HD. Sky used to "get round" the HDCP "digital o/p only" rules by saying they have an encryption system of their own and that any recorded programmes are not held as video but raw, encrypted, data. Seems something has changed in this argument/ruling/agreement for the component o/p to be dropped.

30-09-2008, 16:32	#7
bobcar Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 14,718	Quote: Originally Posted by LCDMAN But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug. The point is that you can't get SD out of the V+ SCART if you have HDMI enabled so whether its a bug or a "design feature" it must be a pain for many people. The rationale behind it being a "design feature seems a little strange.

30-09-2008, 16:37	#8
Nigel Goodwin Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Derbyshire Posts: 41,789	Quote: Originally Posted by LCDMAN But you can't get HD out of anything other than the HDMI o/p, the SCART (RGB or composite), S-video and RF don't carry HD. We use a Sky HD box in the lab here, so I'm pretty confident of that bit! Equally, you wouldn't be able to get HD out of the SCART connector on a V+ box. I am still confident that the SCART cut off when HDMI connected is by design, whether that is good or bad design is perhaps a point of conjecture, but it isn't a bug. Obvously you don't get HD except via HDMI and (previously) component - but this has no bearing on the limitations of the V+ box. Quote: New Sky HD boxes don't have a component output now, as that could carry HD. Sky used to "get round" the HDCP "digital o/p only" rules by saying they have an encryption system of their own and that any recorded programmes are not held as video but raw, encrypted, data. Seems something has changed in this argument/ruling/agreement for the component o/p to be dropped. Nothing has changed at all, and it was never anything to do with information been held on the disk encrypted - it was always known, from well before launch of Sky HD, that the Component sockets would be removed from later production. Also, that it was a possibility that the existing ones may be disabled in a later update - they were there only for legacy reasons, because many HDTV's only had Component sockets (HDMI was still too new). The trade was generally surprised how long the Component sockets continued on production though, most people thought 12 months was about all it would last before they were removed.

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