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Home cinema recommendations with specific requirements!


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Old 06-10-2008, 17:22
ChrisSoutham
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Hi guys,
Apologies if this is repeated anywhere, I've not seen it anywhere.

I've recently invested in a good full HD TV and Sky HD but am slightly lacking in the sound department (something I've never researched).

I need the following:

A home cinema system, 5.1 will do nicely
Wireless rear speakers
Three 5.1 inputs from my Sky HD, DVD player and Apple TV.

Don't really need a DVD player built in, just the inputs - I think they all have HDMI and digital optical out.

I've seen Philips HTS335W
http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/5951...ema-syste.html
and Panasonic SC-PT350
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-SC.../dp/B000QDIRZG

Definitely looking in the budget line despite my requirements!

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 06-10-2008, 17:44
MAW
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If you've bought a good TV, these will probably be a sound downgrade. My advice is don't bother till you can do it properly.
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Old 06-10-2008, 18:24
skinj
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The Panasonic does not have 3 digital inputs it has 1 and I doubt the philips one does either. The 350 is also last years model and has been replace by the SC-PT467. These are self contained items to give you 5.1 sound from DVD, pro-logic or self devised surround from TV/Radio/CD and thats it.
They are not designed to plug multiple Digital sources into. If you want do do this you need to be thinking along the lines of a proper HomeCinema Reciever such as http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_m...detail&Pid=390 then choose some speakers to go with it.
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:34
ChrisSoutham
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If you've bought a good TV, these will probably be a sound downgrade. My advice is don't bother till you can do it properly.
Surely spending a further £250 on sound has got to be better than the speakers in my Samsung TV?
I mean it's doesn't have 5 speakers to start with...
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:54
niall campbell
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you need HDMI 1.3 at least in your amp

only 3 decent good ones with 3 or 4 inputs. HDMI is the new scart

http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_m...detail&Pid=388

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/pro...8_5935286.html

Sony STR-DG820
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...4791&langId=-1

my money is on the sony

you will need a speaker package with it, but just buy a cheap set as the amp will last years and is the most important thing
http://www.richersounds.com/splashpage.php
it is well noted modern tellys have poor sound to fit in a very small space
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Old 07-10-2008, 14:48
MAW
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Was afraid I'd be flamed for saying that, seems most agree with me. I'm an onkyo man myself, and the 606 is the kick off point for HDMI 1.3 switching. You don't per se have to worry about HD audio decoding, you'll never use it in an amp unless you both know what you are doing and are prepared to sacrifice convenience for marginal audio improvement, which you won't hear till you've spend a grand on your speakers. Any 3 input amp with HDMI 1.3 will do the biz for you, no out of the box system can do this currently, and BTW wireless rear speakers are a contradiction in terms. You either run speaker wire or power wire to whatever speakers you have.
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Old 07-10-2008, 14:53
ChrisSoutham
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and BTW wireless rear speakers are a contradiction in terms. You either run speaker wire or power wire to whatever speakers you have.
Well yes and no, I agree they're not completely wireless!
However I have power sockets elsewhere in the room but there's no way I could run a cable from front to rear unfortunately

Thanks for the replies - may be I'll look at Cambridge Audio amp, as I've got friends working there!
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Old 07-10-2008, 14:59
MAW
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Cambridge can be OK, and at least you should get some straight talking from your mates. Re wires, I'm guessing you have wood floors or something? Fine wire behind the beading? One of those stick on conduits on the skirting board? Drill through to outside, and back in at the rear of the room? I do this for a living, and I've had success with all of those methods.
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Old 07-10-2008, 17:46
clockworks999
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I agree that wireless speakers are pretty pointless, unless you are prepared to spend serious money. IIRC, a company called Canton were getting good reviews for their wireless speakers a while ago. Thing is, for what they cost, you could buy a decent set of wired speakers, and pay an installer to fit the cables.

If you want to spend just a few hundred, go secondhand. Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Arcam, and Onkyo make good AV amps that'll run for at least 10 years without any problems. Buy one that's 4 or 5 years old for a third of the new price.

If you are prepared to use larger or non-matching speakers, you can get some real bargains. Unless they get damp, or are seriously abused, speakers will last practically for ever. A pair of "bookshelf" speakers for the rears, a pair of "stereo" speakers for the fronts, and a decent centre, could be found for around £175 secondhand.
Couple these with a £150 secondhand AV amp, and you'll have a system that'll do your new TV justice, and beat any home-cinema-in-a-box setup.

I wouldn't worry too much about HDMI sockets on the amp - put the video straight to the TV and the audio to the amp. Get a universal remote to handle all the extra switching.
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:20
MAW
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I disagree with that I'm afraid. If you are to buy an AV amp, there is now little point in buying one which does not switch HDMI and is capable of HD audio. ALL future devices will be HDMI, I now have 5 HDMI sources myself, and none which are not, though I might buy a Wii at Xmas. Even £30 DVD players have it, skyHD, freesat are HDMI only. You need HDMI switching.
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:28
clockworks999
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I disagree with that I'm afraid. If you are to buy an AV amp, there is now little point in buying one which does not switch HDMI and is capable of HD audio. ALL future devices will be HDMI, I now have 5 HDMI sources myself, and none which are not, though I might buy a Wii at Xmas. Even £30 DVD players have it, skyHD, freesat are HDMI only. You need HDMI switching.
OK, if I was buying a new AV amp, I'd like on with HDMI switching. In fact, my Arcam AVR350 has 2 HDMI inputs, but I've got 5 HDMI sources. Rather than buy a new amp, I spent £25 on a remote controlled HDMI switcher.

I feel that sound quality and having enough audio inputs are the main things to consider when buying an AV amp. Lack of video inputs/switching is easily solved by other means.
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Old 08-10-2008, 09:24
MAW
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Not in the case of HDMI, you need at least 1 input on your amp, and a separate switcher if going that route. HDMI is not just video is it. You cannot get HD audio by any other means unless buying a top of the range player with 6 channel analogue out, and have a 6 channel input, like you do on your £1000 Arcam. You might find an Onkyo 604 going cheap, as it doesn't do DD TrueHD, an unnecessary feature as the player will do that for you. That's the kind of thing to buy 2nd hand, and add a switcher to that if you need more HDMIs.
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Old 08-10-2008, 18:47
clockworks999
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Not in the case of HDMI, you need at least 1 input on your amp, and a separate switcher if going that route. HDMI is not just video is it. You cannot get HD audio by any other means unless buying a top of the range player with 6 channel analogue out, and have a 6 channel input, like you do on your £1000 Arcam. You might find an Onkyo 604 going cheap, as it doesn't do DD TrueHD, an unnecessary feature as the player will do that for you. That's the kind of thing to buy 2nd hand, and add a switcher to that if you need more HDMIs.
Point taken about HD audio, but the kind of person that's trying to decide whether it's worth spending more than £300 on an audio system isn't really in that market.
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Old 08-10-2008, 18:50
ChrisSoutham
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I'm opting right now for the Sony HT-SS1300.
I know it hasn't got full range of Dolby doodahs but as my first entry into home cinema it looks okay.
Also decided I can do something with the rear wires given I have a wooden floor and skirting!

Thanks for your help all
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Old 08-10-2008, 18:53
MAW
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Looks OK. The speakers will be shit, but will do just fine for a good while I daresay. The kit itself should be reasonably future proof, you'd be able to upgrade the speakers another time.
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Old 08-10-2008, 19:21
Deacon1972
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Point taken about HD audio, but the kind of person that's trying to decide whether it's worth spending more than £300 on an audio system isn't really in that market.
I don't know about that, going by some here they want the system to do everything for £300.

In fact HD audio can now be got got for under £300 providing the user has BD.

Sony 820 for £250 and Yammy speakers for £50. Won't sound exceptional but it's a start. £400 is about the minimum I'd say for HD audio.
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Old 08-10-2008, 19:33
clockworks999
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I don't know about that, going by some here they want the system to do everything for £300.

In fact HD audio can now be got got for under £300 providing the user has BD.

Sony 820 for £250 and Yammy speakers for £50. Won't sound exceptional but it's a start. £400 is about the minimum I'd say for HD audio.
Would you really be able to tell the difference between HD audio and normal DD 5.1 at that price?

I'm not that au fait with the very latest in audio specs - I tend to read up on a subject when I'm thinking about upgrading. Having spent £2500 on my current AV amp and speakers less than 3 years ago, I'm not ready to spend at the moment. New TV and iMac have taken care of the last few month's "pocket money".

From the little that I have read, HD audio is just double the sample rate - correct? The last I heard, HD audio was being compared to SACD - nice idea, but more spec than 99% of consumers actually need or would appreciate.
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Old 08-10-2008, 20:26
Deacon1972
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Would you really be able to tell the difference between HD audio and normal DD 5.1 at that price?
I would say there would be a small difference between the two formats, but then the speakers would be the weakest link.

Moving up in quality and budget the difference would be more apparent.

£400 is a good price to enter into HD audio, you could always upgrade the speakers at a later date.

I'm not that au fait with the very latest in audio specs - I tend to read up on a subject when I'm thinking about upgrading. Having spent £2500 on my current AV amp and speakers less than 3 years ago, I'm not ready to spend at the moment. New TV and iMac have taken care of the last few month's "pocket money".
Speakers make all the difference - My current speakers are B&W's but I'm just demoing a full set of Genelecs which are fantastic. The detail before was kind of muffled whereas with the Genelecs it's very crisp, I'm hearing things I never noticed before when listening to my favourite movies. Separation of the soundtracks seems to have improved, I don't know whether this is because I'm just using the amp as a processor as the speakers have their own amps. I'm very impressed so far.


From the little that I have read, HD audio is just double the sample rate - correct? The last I heard, HD audio was being compared to SACD - nice idea, but more spec than 99% of consumers actually need or would appreciate.
The bitrates can reach 24.5Mbit/s, this is for DTS HD MA, Dolby True HD is around 18Mbit/s. The audio is also lossless and can be upto 7.1 channels.

Not everyone is interested in HD audio, just the enthusiast I think, but if you have an ear for good quality it certainly delivers.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:13
niall campbell
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http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...id=YAMA-NSP110

speakers £50 or £ 80 black

sony amp £250

http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...Y-STRDG820-BLK

so thats £300 with a future proof system

you will be nuts to get anything else and you can add on to it
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:52
MAW
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HD audio, clockworks, you are the target audience. But everyone can benefit, it's CD quality over all 6 channels, which is much more than twice as good as standard DD. That's like iTunes in comparison, and I'm sure with your kit you can tell the difference between iTunes and CD!!! An amp at around the £300 mark is up do delivering a good part of this extra quality, speakers under £4-500 I doubt it. So I think it's worth investing in the electronics, since the speakers are the easiest thing to upgrade, can be done any time. They make such a gratifyingly big difference when you've spent your hard earned on them too, and of course can be a style statement too.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:23
Deacon1972
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HD audio, clockworks, you are the target audience. But everyone can benefit, it's CD quality over all 6 channels, which is much more than twice as good as standard DD.
Over 8 channels if you go the whole hog.

Lionsgate is one of the better companies for releasing 7.1 material, I'm like a Cheshire Cat when my amp lights up the two surround back channels.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:52
Chris Frost
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I know the OP has already made his decision, but for what it's worth I haven't found an all-in-one system worth bothering with as either a long term investment or as a stop gap. They're just too compromised.

Set-up limitations: No speaker distance adjustment at all ( ) or only in feet/30cm increments.

A decent AV amp allows adjustment in 10cm increments but even this is too course for accurate time alignment, so I and other professional installers will move the speakers or seating position to get better timing. Done properly this adjustment alone is worth more than an upgrade to HD audio.

Special connectors: They make a system easier to set up and save the manufacture some money, but you can't easily upgrade the speakers without butchering the cables.

Passive subs: This is where the bass speaker connects to the amp box with speaker wire (and a special connector ). It usually means there's no proper sub output for a powered sub upgrade. It's possible to get round this but it does mean that there are extra speaker cables involved and you have to butcher the special connectors to make the system work.

Incidentally, cheap passive subs from all-in-one systems have almost no s/hand value.

Cheap, but poor value: Have a look at the s/hand prices of these systems. They sell for peanuts. A proper s/hand AV amp and speaker package might cost a little more but will hold it's value far better when it comes time to upgrade.

I can see the appeal of all-in-ones. Loads of people own them and if they've never heard a decent bugdet AV system then they'll probably be very happy. But for anyone taking the first step to building a good AV systems then all-in-ones are a bad first purchase IMO.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:03
Deacon1972
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Passive subs: This is where the bass speaker connects to the amp box with speaker wire (and a special connector ). It usually means there's no proper sub output for a powered sub upgrade. It's possible to get round this but it does mean that there are extra speaker cables involved and you have to butcher the special connectors to make the system work.

Incidentally, cheap passive subs from all-in-one systems have almost no s/hand value.
And would I be correct in saying that when using a passive sub the system is not a true 5.1 system as there is no dedicated bass channel. It's all done by using a crossover and works in a similar way to when you have a DPL soundtrack selected.

An active sub has it's own dedicated channel, it's completely separate from all the other channels.

Another downside to using a passive sub is the drain on the amp, whereas an active sub just requires a mono signal as it has it's own amp/power.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:40
Chris Frost
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I suppose it all depends how precise one wants to be about the definition of 5.1

IMO mixing the bass track in to the front L & R speaker channels then using the sub's crossover to extract it is a perfectly valid approach if gear is up to the job. This method is used in some high-end stereo speakers with built-in powered subs. But of course we're not talking high-end here.

You're correct about the power required to drive the bass. It takes a lot of grunt. You know what most aspiring all-in-one owners will say though...
"It's got 1000W. Says so in the brochure/web site"

You and I both know that this figure is achieved by running low Ohm speakers - typically 4 Ohm - and that the power is measured for a fraction of a second, at the most efficient frequency, with only one speaker driven, and they often omit to mention the horrendous distortion.

There are lies, damned lies, and manufacturers specifications
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Old 09-10-2008, 13:02
MAW
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Deacon, my reply was tailored to clockworks' kit, he has a 5.1 analogue intput now. I agree completely with Mr Frost, but occasionally needs must, and that Sony system is the best of a bad lot as far as I can see. Can't see any reason why you cannot connect the bass 'speaker level' output to most active subs on the market. It should work, and hopefully that will be dedicated LFE, though no absolute guarantee! Connecting up something like Cantons or Gallo sub/sat speakers to such a system would certainly give you a performance improvement, though there are still various handicaps. But unless anyone has sufficient power of persuasion, his mind is made up. Still, others may benefit from our little discussion.
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