I don't like shoutey singers.

This is a post I made elsewhere:

I think the best three would have been Laura, Diana and Hannah because they have the best voices.

I think the X Factor have shown us that there are a lot of girls out there like Alexandera who just screech and shout but a girl who can sing well but has a nice voice is better.

It makes me wonder how people see the rest of the world where singers like Lata Mangeshkar of India is renowned as the best singer in the world by her contemporaries while in the west a majority of X Factor viewers respond from being over fed the Mariah/Whitney bandwagon.

Now here is a link to Lata Mangeshkar and how she sings.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IEmbhtywyMI

Now she is classed by people from the Indian Sub-Continent and beyond (she has played to classical audiences the world over) as one of the best singers in the world but in the west where sex sells and ballads have a wider appeal, people think and really do believe that Whitney and Mariah are talented singers.


In France it would be Mylene Farmer or Patricia Kaas who are just singers without shouting and looking like they're going to breathe fire or release a demon from their mouth while singing.

If that is the case, what about singers like Sheryl Crow (classically trained : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RNE3JzYh_3g), Ani De Franco, Fiona Apple and Bjork who I would say is amazingly successful and has a massive career led by musical talent rather than record company and TV Producer marketing input and bias.

I doubt there is any chance of changing the views of the world of the "diva" manipulation. By that I mean there is a lazy approach by the media to associate Whitney, Mariah etc as Divas which gives them an innacurate view of and grossly limited, tiny view of what world music has to offer and in this case - what singing has to offer.

So as most of us know, the show has nothing to do with the "X Factor", because if that was the case we wouldn't be looking for copycats and acts like Diana and Hannah would be respected for the uniqueness and Alexandera would be seen as another Diva-brainwashed shouting singer and Laura, she would just be a copy cat wannabe of Nu-Jazz.

Although as it is, it's about record sales so copy an act and try and make money.

Beer it really has nothing to do with culture.

the "X factor" in all this is tweenager with pocket money

thats the sole purpose of this show.

hence why Cowell couldn't give a **** for culture and good signing.

I agree with most of waht you say, Beer, but I think that the love of Divas has to do with Mr Cowell's taste more than anything else. This year, however, some of the finalists are different, not diva-esque, so let's see what happens.

Yeah I guess, that is true - but what I'm looking at is the general view of singing.

Being force fed shouty singers as the best, we don't appear to think that any singer who doesn't shout can actually sing. I think that's very sad because it appears to be the majority who think you have to squeal shout and scream.

I don't know about his taste after what he said about Diana singing Hallelujah (that she had good taste in music) so it may just be to do with knowing the market of viewers and how much spare cash they have for shouters on CD.

could be that. or the fact that Il Divo are releasing Hallelujah next month!

I find it hard to judge, I agree with most you said.. And if I simplify it for me I do think big singers are usually always overrated and we lack individuality in contests like this. Then just going by history, big "screechy" singers are the ones that people remember, Whitney, Mariah, Leona. It's like indie bands - all copycats to me, no individuality and far too many off them (gone right off the point there!)

I like to see different styles and voices on offer rather than a loud voice.

You'll be a big fan of Leon then?

Beer,

I am not a fan of Whitney, Celine etc, but it is a great pity that you feel the need to extol the virtues of some by being negative about others.
Alexandra does not screech when she sings, Perhaps there is something wrong with the sound on your telly.

And hannah did not get in, but if she really is talented then she does not need the show.

Beer, while I think Alexandra has a lot of talent and I love her voice(but agree she could stand to back off with the belting in places from what Ive heard), I think most of the singers you mentioned are great. I actually prefer listening to Diana, but in context of the show, think Alexandra has the most ability.Both are talented, though, IMO.
Sadly, only a narrow spectrum of styles is comercially viable/marketable here, mostly because it is what has been popularised.
I have to say, the one singer I disagree on(vocals only, overall she is great) is Sheryl Crow. She was wise to carve a career employing the conversational style of singing she is popular for. Her technique is impressive, but it is obvious from the link you gave and other performances Ive heard that she was not particularly gifted in the natural ability department. Still, credit to her for making the most of what she did have vocally, and she is an excellent performer and musician/songwriter.
I think it is more a matter of media trends than culture that limits/dictates the tastes of many music listeners. Let's face it, anyone who looks outside the mainstream will find countless vocalists who can sing circles around any xfactor contestant(with a couple of exceptions to that statement, of course), but most are happy to just 'eat what they are fed'.

Mate. The world's a big place and tastes vary wildly.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is room for them all and you just need to pick the fruit that YOU enjoy the most.
Awards are meaningless.

Beer - you doth protest too much, and too often. It's nothing about being force-fed styles of singing, but what each individual ear enjoys. The perfect example is your link to Lata Mangeshkar's "Wada Na Tod" which to me comes across as shriekly irritating as someone dragging their nails down a blackboard.

Clearly someone is still bitter Hannah didn't get through and Alexandra did. I personally believe Hannah shouted more, especially during 'Piece Of My Heart'.

Could you please post an example of Alexandra "screeching" or "shouting" from youtube? Because I've watched the whole series so far and Alexandra hasn't screeched or shouted once. She's sang though, and is pretty good at it.

Oddly the thread has gone completely off topic.

The thread is about cultures and how a culture is force fed a certain type of singing. I for one am not on trial here I'm sorry to say and I don't seem to see why I am...

e.g. I am in no position where I should be questioned for a thread I made. If anyone says I am then they are getting very personal on what is supposed to be a place of debate and forum users should not be given personal approaches.

Anyway - the thread is about shouting and how people rely upon shouting. Like Alexandera. BTW my TV is hooked up via an amplifcation system I personally built under specs that were given via a product used in microphones and speakers designed to emit almost realistic sounds. I use it for work so I would get the most accurate sound quality going.

I hook up the same system to everything in my house and use it for work as well so working with the best in the business I get upgrades all the time. It's not available in the shops but something like it should be in a couple of years.

So yeah - culture and how different cultures appreciate different sounds but one thing we can count on is that the world doesn't appreciate shouting as much as they do after the MTV explosion where the dramatic sound is used with visuals. The world appreciate softer voices that can sing. A good thing and generally an excellent thing.

I'll reply to people on topic.

Sheryl wasn't gifted? She's been a musician all across the board since a very young age. Extremely gifted and asked to work with the best rather than been used as a tool for the record companies like Mariah and Whitney were.

They're like a brand.

Well media trends create a culture - That is the power of TV and what I say in the first post. and yes - happy to eat what they are fed.

Nah he was responding to her liking Damien Rice and the Beatles.

I think when people hear somebody screech they are shocked and the power of the "pedestal" makes them think this scary shout is a mark of status in the music industry - as it's being portrayed on TV.

Like I am trying to say - there is no changing people because TV is very very powerful. I have been extremely shocked I could say and surprised at a clear example and illustration of how powerful TV is as I have seen on these forums. I find on the Big Brother forum people are very easy in understanding how much of a stage the show is but it's different with X Factor where people really believe what they are shown. It's surprising.

Beer, re-Sheryl Crow, maybe I didnt word it the way I meant it.
I did not mean she isnt gifted in general, which obviously she very much is. I meant as a vocalist, ya get what you are born with, and she has an average or less range and not the richest/thickest(strugglin for words here) tone....But I didnt say she is not good. I actually admire her versatility and musical intelligence when it comes to making the most of her vocals, and think she has wriitten some fantastic songs. Shes a pretty darn awesome musician as well.

I think Alexandra has a great voice, but did agree, she does over-sing sometimes. I am assuming she is probably capeable of singing in a more melodic way, based on qualities I hear in her voice.
She may well be exaggerrating the style she is singing in because she knows it is 'what sells?'.
I enjoy pop/r&b, but agree that it takes more ability/technique to 'sing' than to 'belt' , and am enjoying this thread.

I think Rihanna was a breath of fresh air to RnB and also Ciara as well. Far too much shouting for ages and I think it's very easy, very easy to record, master and engineer and I think this is why it was used for so long by the producers and is still used. It's mass producers/manufacturers dream.

I think, no honestly I don't think Alexandera can sing. My opinion I guess but I've seen a lot of girls like her in comps. A lot and it's not singing. The emotion is just not there. Raw emotion. What makes Rachel, Laura and Diana standout and also the lesser mentioned Ruth, Daniel is emotion. I mean they're not outstanding singers but they can sing and it's nice to see people attach themselves emotionally to a song.

Now if I wanted technically perfect, I'll listen to Bryn Terfel or Kathryn Jenkins or even Lata Mangeshkar above. That's technically perfect if ever there was technically perfect.

Cant say I am a Katharine Jenkins fan, but I appreciate that she is a very skilled vocalist with a beautiful tone.
I have noticed that the new trend is toward the Winehouse/Duffy/Gabriella Cilmi/Adele sound, wich is probably going to eventually annoy some people as much as the Whitney/Mariah/Aguilera style does now. I think all these singers are talented, but understand where you are coming from.
I dont know about that style being easier to record/mix/master, though...No expert on the recording end, just enough to understand the basics, butsome of those songs are sung in a way that fluctuates in volume/pitch so drastically that Id imagine it to be a major chore to record compared to the more consistent tone/volume styles ..plus many of the warblers/shouters tend to go off pitch...I dunno how much of a pain that is to correct, but Im glad I am not the one who has to do it.(I have sung a few Mariah covers and similar in the past,and until I learned the right technique, was a sound engineer's nightmare, lol)

I pretty much eat/sleep/live music, vocals in particular, so I appreciate mainstream as well as non mainstream music, but most of the singers I like are not currently popular.
AS far as 'quirky' Id say the all-time Queen of 'quirky' would have to be Yma Sumac...I cant decide if I love or hate listening to recordings of her.
I love Ella Fitzgerald/Sarah Vaughn/Sam Cooke....Kate Bush, Annie Lennox....Dorothy Moore....
I do wonder at the hype the 'judges' throw at xfactor contestants. Every year, someone is 'the best ever'....I can honestly say that none of my favorite vocalists came from xfactor, though I think a few are very good.

Do you think the media caters to public tases, or public caters to the media's dictates ?
Its an interesting dynamic to me, and this thread has it as an undertone.

If their voice fluctuates Singy then the mixer will just pick it up on an automated mixer and on another one (manual) first take test recording at the highest vocal point and then you set the mixer level appropriately (or take different recordings of verse and chorus but these days people use automated mixers). Later you can normalize the recording without any real loss to the sound.

Obviously later you have to add backing instruments too and level everything out (engineer it/mix it) but that's a technical aspect but this tells you how the digital world has changed things and how some commercial artists whose records are pushed out quickly operate.

So if somebody just shouts then the range remains quite level throughout. It's so easy to record but importantly so easy to manipulate and if you think about it, this is why shouty singers are used on a commercial level because of the ease in which their vocals can be used to record mix but importantly today to digitise their voice over numerous studios, numerous producers and numerous mixers. So I'm just saying, you can't mess around with a good voice because it is a good voice.

I think there is no denying that the media dictates it Singy. Sex sells massively and I reckon if you didn't have the marketing pull like videos, gigs in shopping centers and stuff, then these people will be nothing. They are selling sex rather than music. One way I see it is, how can you say all these generic songs with a verse, bridge, chorus, verse bridge routine is something so cool. It's just something the public fall for. Another way of looking at it is - these individual artists don't work on the music. They just do the singing and usually it's digitised awfully - so how can you say the song is theirs when in fact musicians play instruments and then they're skit (usually done alone) is taken to a producers and then he takes the files to a mixer and an engineer and the sound changes. It's a production line.

This is all managed by a record company so... how can you say it's the singer whose song it is? If the singer sang over a pneumatic drill and a couple of spoons banging against a Ford Fiesta, would you buy it?

And this is what the X Factor is about. They're selling an image that has been force fed to you for 13 weeks. It's like wondering, what has a sob story got to do with the person and even a recording contract when in fact real singers are songwriters too and they write their own music and lyrics too. This is just completely manipulating people with what they need through the powerful medium of TV.

Just a thought, but I read recently (can't remember where) that background noise in our cities has risen massively over the last decade. Maybe a shouty singer is easier to hear over the background din, whereas to hear a softer song requires more "listening"?

I don't think shouty singing is very popular in the UK any more. The trend lately has been towards quirky singers like Corrine Bailey Ray and Lily Allen and away from the Whitney/Maria variety. I don't think this is true in the States as they are more old fashioned and predictable when it comes to music.

The reason people admire those sort of singers is because it's a rare ability to stay in control of the notes when they are sung loudly and through a large range of notes. Personally I prefer interpretation to range and ability and have never bought an album by either Whitney or Mariah. I prefer to listen to singers like Bjork or Tori Amos. There again I love the purity, power and range of Annie Lennox's voice.

Musical taste is a very subjective thing, but although there are always shouty singers in the X factor, Brenda, Beverley, Nikki etc, they have never actually won it. I wouldn't describe Leona as shouty, even though her style is derivative of Mariah.

I found the voice of Lata Mangeshkar horribly shouty, incidentally. I wouldn't want to listen to a whole album of hers.

I think they're just shouting mate and they're just singing a note of a song (which they've memorised) louder. I think the view that they go through different notes is difficult is lessening the qualities of a good voice.

Great example. Football fans singing in unison. Shouting while singing - do you know how many people can do that at football matches? Over thousands - millions every week - billion or so around the world.