That point proves my point in the first post.

They're very good. Which proves my point - Fiona Apple, excellence creates great music and they don't need to shout to aid the mass production of music or even talk and give the impression they are singing.

They don't have a meagre recording contract where they make cheap videos.

They don't make videos full stop because they were appalled at the outrageous expense of their only studio video for the song Jeremy.

She's been a factory musician churning out cheesy soundtracks for the masses. Cowell would be ever so proud.

Going back to your argument - it has to be noted there's an incredible number of artistically gifted, self-promoting and commercially successful Western musicians. How do these fit into your theory that the population of the West is subjugated to like only shouty, whiney, shiney happy singers?

I'm still struggling to find your real angle here - you seem to hate the X-Factor and all it stands for yet you're openly supporting some of this year's finalists. Isn't that incompatible?

Lata Mangeshkar is a factor musician churning out cheesy soundtracks? You are so off on that that? Go to an Indian Bollywood chatroom and ask them about Lata's training. Ask them and learn about the classical basis of most of the Bollywood songs if not all the Bollywood songs you sing in. I can't believe you said that above.

Read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lata_Mangeshkar#Early_life

Then learn about the artist who trained in classical music and the classical basis to the bollywood songs from Lata's era and even present day. Wow.

Do you even know anything about Lata Mangeshkar and who she is? I'm astounded at that response.

Where did I say the west is subjugated to like only shouty, whiney, shiney happy singers? Where?

I mention some singers from the west who become successful and don't have to be in the public eye to give that success.

I "seem" to hate the X Factor - I think it's trash TV and I like trash TV.

You seem to want to continually post and make personal remarks and find a personal flaw in me flagpole and also argue rather than stick to the discussion or even read the first post in full. All your answers are there and also in the posters who replied on topic as well.

All your posts have been off topic and I have tried and tried to bring you on topic but you remain to want to find another angle after another angle to find a personal flaw in me.

Why not just see what the thread is about (detailed in the on topic replies) and focus on that instead of me...?

I have repeatedly said I'm finding it difficult to find what the thread is about as your arguments and examples are not coherent, and even at times contradict each other. It's not a personal thing at all - I've posted backing your arguments and comments in another thread this evening:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...=910312&page=2

You theory seems to hinge on Western culture being pre-conditioned by the media to love Diva-type singing. The problem I have is the theory doesn't match up with reality as it's not that popular as a style at all. Your examples of non-Diva artists you'd prefer the West to listen to are by far and away in the majority in western musical pop culture and in one case displays no uniqueness whatsoever.

Beer, I get what you are saying now. I am familiar enough with digital audio and my home studio to record, but only (very) basic demos of song ideas, wich is why I have challenges with fluctuating volume levels recording myself(though not with my pitch, Iam very anti-melodyne or whatever the latest 'cheat' for lazy singing is) and believe if ya cant sing it, move over and make room for someone who can). My husband takes over from there as far as the techie stuff. I just dont 'do' the auto sliding faders, more complicated midi, etc. (Hence the simple nick 'SingyThingy' and not 'Audio Mastermind Engineering Genuis Thingy').

Anyway, I totally get how the use of 'shouty' singers /simple backings is cheap and easy to produce...kinda like a lot of backings used for certain popular styles can be replicated easily just messing around with simple comp based programs, right? (not that I personally can do much that route, but have heard plenty of such 'music' coming from moniter speakers duing off time , if you know what I mean )

Lol, I might just buy the track produced by a drill and spoons banging a Ford Fiesta, depending on the mix and overall sound, but I do see your point.

I would love to be able to agree completely with you as far as 'real 'singers also being songwriters, because I am as much a songwriter as I am a singer, and admit I do think less of artists , for the most part, who get co-credits for adding a few words into the lyrics and such.....but some exceptionally gifted vocalists are great when it comes to INTERPRETING songs, and they have my respect. Ella Fitzgerald, for instance...and Katharine Jenkins , who you like and I agree is gifted, doesn't write , unless I am mistaken, which I could be.

On to the culture/media aspect....yeah, sadly sex/image sells. This has got me thinking ...about image, and media hype, wich fascinates me and is the main reason I watch shows like xfactor/A idol. I think maybe culture dictated music trends in decades past, but not so much now. There was a bigger difference in trends in various countries, from the research Ive done, pre-cable tv, pre-internet, and pre easy-access to flights for musicians, etc...and so on. So maybe these 'reality shows' and trends in image/music are just the natural progression of the global hype-machine (paired with the easy/cheap music mill capeabilities you mentioned) to create this 'fast food' music thing that has kind of taken over in the last decade or so?

AS far as saying a song belongs to a singer who is signed, let's face it, what major would even allow much of that? The profits are in the publishing, and the artists tend to get !@#%^ed over. I have seen enough to steer very clear , at least for now. Only desperation and years of failure would ever tempt me to go crawling to a major or reality show, and as far as the reality show angle, any artist who has definite ideas of what they want to do probably prays to make the top 12 and then 'lose'.

I think the difference between us is that I give 'shouty' singers(who dont lose their tone and have at least some agility/dynamics) the benefit of the doubt. I assume they can also sing a proper melody and have some versatility. Through experience, I can usually tell when someone is only a shouter.
Based on your posts, I am guessing you have had to hear your share of shouters? I can understand where someone who is a sound engineer or such would develope an allergy over time, haha.

Anyway, I watch xfactor to study the hype machine and for the ocasional brilliant(IMO) performance. I hate the 'sob stories' and have some rather unpopular opinions about some of them. It is interesting to watch how most people eat what the media serves up, either getting into the panto side of it, or feeling clever for 'seeing through' what looks like carefully orchestrated 'mistakes' that show the 'manipulation....if that makes sense?

I didn't say I want the West to listen to any Diva artists.

That's where I think you continue to miss the point of the thread, that you think I want people to do something and I expect people to do something.

I have found last night - after reading posts that people have defended an artist and let me get political here.

When a country spends a long time defending themselves over and over again, they become unstable until they change their economy and the way they do business. It's what the USA are doing in the middle east where war and civil war has existed for a long time.

So with the forum, a very innocent and straight forward thread about how culture and motivational and persuasive forces in culture persuade society to listen to certain music - is questioned because it relates to an ex X Factor contestant. I also didn't like another X Factor contestant either because of the really frighteningly visible lack of talent on display as well.

I would say, this being an open forum one can give their opinions with more freedom and there are forums for individual artists that would be more appropriate for complete and utter adulation of an artist because here, continually people will put you on the back foot - even in a situation like this when it isn't the case.

So I'll say again, the thread is more or less a discussive thread about the power of media.

I think there are a few non-shouty singers this year. I remember watching the auditions and they showed one of those clips where they put through like 10 people and it was that backing track of some life affirming song and people being given the yes vote after shouting into the mic, over and over again and then very few of them got through to the end.

One a side note, on a live rig nobody will ask you to set your mixer level but obviously when recording you have to set the maximum level through your mic. It's not unknown for home users to use a different level setting for their verses and chorus. You can also automate the mixer levels later as well through a digital sequencing package like Logic Pro or Cubase. Somebody was asking me randomly online a while back and it's great once people know how to do it because the method is becoming more so simpified.

The Ella and Katherine thing was placed in there in terms of singers who are of astounding quality who make it on their astounding quality rather than their ability to be mass produced due to an ability to shout. No other reason. The thread was going off an on a bit.

I would like someone who shouts IF, big IF, there weren't so many people with a great voice, (operative word being voice) out there. People can sing. Football fans can sing when they shout out load - in their billions around the world but having a great voice is something else and it is a musical instrument in itself then and the most unique musical instrument. Then the voice doesn't drone and moan but it's very gorgeous.

Now, this situation that the mass produced tune is in leads us to a world full of singers with nasal voices and throaty voices and some that are high pitches - where all these people with unusual voices are admired greatly in their immediate habitat but the hype machine, the sex as a weapon hype machine will use what is better for the industry and the production - what is easier and cheaper and doesn't mess up the state of the situation.

Right now, I'm not completely impressed with any of them but it will be cool to watch them sing on a live set up when it happens. I think the show calling itself the X Factor when, well it's not searching for the X Factor puts you off even taking it seriously, especially when their idea of a group is girls screeching like they're singing a Girls Aloud song on the bus or a few guys who have learned harmonise while showing well shaped arms and a bit of chest.

Then it's all down to research and marketing and what they are looking for. It's like the political set up where they are catering for hockey moms, socca moms, joe sixpack, young thinkers etc. The people behind the X Factor are catering for a certain market - usually with a ballady soppy song that doesn't go well with our clogged up roads, mass produced houses and takeaway binge drinking inner cities.

You're completely ignoring the fact that people have different tastes and preferences which have nothing to do with culture. I don't like the sound that Lata Mangeshkar makes, no matter how technically perfect other people find it.

I don't like Katherine Jenkins voice either. My preference is for deep voices like Nina Simone or Amy Winehouse. Just me, nothing to do with culture. I like Fiona Apple too, by the way, though she does hit quite a few bum (flat)notes.

Then you have the churn out pop music that appeals to the teens. I'm not sure what you mean by shouty music if you don't think the examples I gave earlier were shouty. I don't find Alexandra shouty and technically she sounds pretty good to me too.

What you consider as shouting, other people consider as having power. Laura and hannah both sung loudly and push there voices into power like singing, but prehaps because you like the style and tones of their voices you dont consider that as shouting, when others singers whos styles you dont like i.e mariah push there vocal power- you consider it to be shouting, becuase your personally don't like their voices.

Btw, laura has a big voice and good range, so fits under the diva definition . Which i like. If she just sang the song without using range, power and variety i would not be a fan- same with hannah. Its what separates a boring voice from an interesting voice for me- the ability to use different tones and variety of strength.

What do you mean I completely ignore the fact that "people have different tastes and preferences which have nothing to do with culture"? Everything is cultural. Music in fact an art form with cultural merits and the thread is about one thing and again somebody else is talking about the thread being about something else?

Fiona Apple hitting bum notes? Ooooooooooh man where am I?

Now back to the point - in fact I have actually bored of repeating the point.

"What you consider as shouting, other people consider as having power."

Yes I have personally said this and this is the failing between Voice and singing and how people are just impressed that somebody can shout so loud. Football fans around the country can shout loud and remain in tune - in their billions. It's just what cultural persuasiveness is in effect at the time.

Now this is the difference. Laura and Hannah have a voice and a sound and now this does not fall out in the marketing man and PR push to call them Divas to give them some merit. That's just a PR stunt to get people to want to stand on the shoulder of giants the record companies make to manipulate the masses. It's hardly quality - it's just "oh she's a diva" and it appeals to the materialistic bling bling market of the west.

Now again this is another post about "me" and what "I" like. The first post is in fact about record companies pushing an artist on a mass production route. Now my next post will put this into light.

In the first post I highlighted how shouty singers who just talk and shout in the songs are used by record companies because they are cheap to mass produce. At first I got some posters who immediately understood the post and discussed it without actually applying myself into the post and making it about me.

The post has nothing to do with me and what I like. It's about how the record industry works.

Now I feel this is all about the nature of this forum and how people attach themselves to an artist on the basis of the status that artist has in the media and that status is created by? The record companies...

Do you see the cycle involved?

So I have to basically state, I can't really respond to posts of this nature where it's people saying "I" like this and "I" want people to do this. There are undeniable facts in the first post about how record companies work in terms of publishing music and manipulating the masses. The fact remains the thread is about if people opened themselves up to music, world music, they will quickly see the distinct lack of shouting singers that people admire because the record companies use every tool possible to make people like them.

That is the nature of that. That's not up to me. If you don't like that - I think it's best to contact record companies and Simon Cowell and ask him to make the mainstream market more better and not just marketing a random shouting singer because digitally it is a perfect tool to use in the studio.

I would have loved the thread to remain on topic but it seems it is very hard to escape from the bond that people make with one artist and I have discovered difficult to escape from people defending the corners of their favourite artist.

I cannot change the way record companies work.