Don't get me started on mains conditioners (and surge suppressors, for that matter)...

Still, that example was very much at the cheapskate end of the market. For a mere £1375, Russ Andrews (who else!) will sell you the QX4 quantum mains conditioner, employing "Quantum Resonant Technology " Of course, you will still need to connect it to the wall socket using a hugely expensive mains cable...

Appeals to arcane (and I have to say, unknown to conventional science!) physics is common in the higher echelons of exotica. It means you don't have to try too hard to explain how your products work, since the average customer can't possibly hope to understand the alleged mechanism.

But then, there's really no need for explanations when magazine reviewers are so helpful:

Crikey! That's one for Pseuds Corner in Private Eye.

http://www.compulink.co.uk/~stevemann/pseuds.htm

How do you guys know for certain that these things do or don't work?

All this thing does is stop spikes in current , it does'nt boost losses so it 's a low level surge protector, as for the claim i heard about improving sound and vision , how ???

Physics?

Why should you be so surprised as to the popularity of MP3 players? Just look at the 'music' most people transfer to these devices. Hardly going to matter what the playback quality is like of most of that music.

infiniteloop, Would that be the same Physics that once said the atom was the smallest thing - until it was split? Science is based on what we think we know.

And as for how exactly these things work, B-29, I think there's more happening as a consequence of mains conditioning.

The thing is we all have our views of the world based on our own experiences, more or less. There are higher planes of performance for most products in life. Sometimes one has to be a connoisseur to appreciate the differences. Hi-Fi is no exception. So when someone dismisses the benefits of cables, mains conditioners etc I often wonder how much experience they have to make that judgment.

In the absence of any plausible mechanism whereby they might work, and in the further absence of any properly conducted double-blind ABX tests that show they do work, I think I am perfectly entitled to draw the conclusion that they don't work.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But even some evidence (beyond techno-babble and mere "reviewer" anecdote) would be a start!

Consider the QX4 "quantum mains conditioner". If you read the blurb, it's better than the QX2 because it contains 4 "quantum resonant" modules instead of 2. If that's still not good enough for you, you can daisy chain them together indefinitely! You can put them in front of your existing mains conditioner. You can put them after your very expensive mains cable. The possible configurations are endless, limited only by your wallet. What a fantastic idea for a product!

Note that any one of these products, used alone, will be described by someone, somewhere, as "freeing your system from its shackles" and bringing hitherto undreamed of sonic or visual perfection. Combined, it's a wonder the reviewers' heads don't explode with the sheer ecstasy of it all. Who would think a system had so much more to give?

I haven't read the article so I won't comment on that specific product, but I don't consider a lack of ABX testing sufficient proof that "a device" doesn't produce a sonic benefit.

What's your Hi-Fi?

No, I'm quite sure you don't.


Adequate. It's connected to the mains using a cheap kettle lead, and to the speakers using heavy gauge (but inexpensive) copper wires.

You may, if you wish, try to persuade me that your (possibly much more expensive) audio system and your (no doubt highly trained) ears benefit from the addition of various bits of expensive exotica.

But in the absence of proper testing to demonstrate that you really can tell the difference, it will all mean precisely nothing.

Well you see, that just proves my point about having enough experience to make make a proper comparison .

With respect, it would be like asking the average Morrisons shopper to wine taste a range of vintage clarets. Even if you sat in on an Blind ABX test you probably wouldn't be in a position to correctly identify the differences


Not a chance. You've already made up your mind and there's nothing anyone can say that will change it.

However, if you or anyone else here is willing to be a little more open minded then it would be interesting to lay on a little HiFi demo. Nothing fancy, no ABX testing; just an opportunity to listen to some decent budget(-ish ) HiFi and hear what difference changing components, cables and tables can do.

I guess I am easily surprised then.......

What I find remarkable is that we've had CD quality for 25 years which generally gives excellent results, we've got loads of people wanting the best perfomance from their equipment (audio and video) and people happy to spend much money on the best equipment and cables yet MP3's are a step backwards in audio quality and yet it's very popular. People are quick to slate Minidisc due to the supposed inferior sound quality (not my actual opinion mind you) yet MP3's are quite ok.

I suppose it's really down to MP3's often being free so sod the quality.



Off topic, I wish DS would ban that damned rolleyes icon, it's the most irritating icon ever.

I've got to agree with Chris here - there's more to hifi (and music reproduction in general) than known science can explain.

I wouldn't dismiss anything out of hand, even £1000 mains conditioners. Listen to some good systems, try changing things, hear the difference.

I probably wouldn't spend that kind of money on accessories, because there are other, more cost-effective, changes that I should consider first. But, I'd be prepared to try them.

An example of how this "flat earth" hifi philosophy can affect people who think they know better:

Over 25 years ago, I bought a Linn Sondek and Ittok tonearm. I didn't have the cash for a new cartridge, so I got the dealer to fit the Shure cartridge from my old Dual turntable while I saved up for a Linn cartridge.
Took it home, and it sounded fabulous.

Went into work the next day, and was laughed at for blowing 6 weeks wages on a record player. I convinced one of my more open-minded colleagues to come round and listen. He was blown away, took the next day off work, drove 50 miles to the dealer and ordered a Linn. He sold his car to pay for it, and rode a moped for the next couple of years.
AFAIK, he never regretted it.

Back then, most people thought that the speakers were the most important part of the chain, since they were "what actually made the noise". They just couldn't accept what Ivor, Julian, and the other "enlightened" people were saying - rubbish in, rubbish out. Couldn't be proved objectively, though.

Nowadays, most people accept this, and the balanced approach is the norm.

Taking it to the extreme, the primary "source" in any music reproduction system is the power supply. The whole chain, from playback device, through amp, to speakers, is just modulating the power that comes out of the wall. Look at it this way, and mains conditioners may just begin to make sense in some systems.

I really liked that story.... i wonder how many people would sell their car these days to get a decent bit of hifi kit?

Well said, Sir

If that were true, the differences would reveal themselves in double-blind ABX tests, and then we could worry about revising the science.


Yes. But do that in a double-blind ABX trial, so that the results have some meaning.

I do understand why Chris Frost is unwilling to accept that he is deluding himself in thinking that some of his (presumably expensive) purchases are little more than snake oil. That's only natural. But there's no point in him pretending that his opinions represent any kind of objective evidence.

njp, PSML do you really think that Double Blind ABX tests are a practical way to audition bits of HiFi and accessories?

Why not take up the offer of listening to some gear and broaden your experience? We don't bite, honest.

The offer is open to anyone else too. I can set something up at my local HiFi dealer near Stockport for a Thursday evening and have a jar after in the pub just down the road. They do food and some decent guest beers

Not in general, no.

But it is the only credible way to investigate the extraordinary claims that are routinely made for certain Hi-Fi and video accessories. Needless to say, the claims crumble into dust whenever they are tested in this way - which is why the tests are rarely performed.

Well, I'm not making any claims. I don't make HiFi and I don't sell (or buy) fancy gadgets and voodoo charms to make music sound better.

If it makes you feel better you can wear a blindfold the whole time . We won't tell you what you're listening to or what we've done. All I ask is you come with an open mind and a bit of honesty to admit it if you hear a difference. Fair enough?

mains conditionig does work, and listening to my neighbours Linn equipment with/ without and you can hear a difference.

would I buy it? No as the sound that does come out of it is good enough, and though theres an improvement its not worth the cost.

Would it work in my Aiwa Hi-Fi............... doubt it.

My neighbour had a rubber mat to go below the CD disc itself and it made the sound worse.

Its like a speaker with tweeters and woofers beside it. It does make a difference. And would i buy one YES

Would I buy a stand and fill it full of sand. No

Would I upgrade from bell wire cable YES

would I spend a lot NO

its all personal choice really and if the person involved actually wants it , then fine. But to bury your head in the sand is wrong

Maybe we should all go back to black and white tellys, with one speaker and be grateful.

I would love to get a telly and fit HDMI cables to it and see if I can see a difference. That might be a better test.

Seems njp has gone really quiet

Excellent point and a good post.

And you tested this how, exactly?


It's a bloody miracle it worked at all...


Speakers having separate woofers and tweeters are entirely uncontroversial, I assure you. But you can also buy "Ultra Tweeters", which claim to operate in the GHz range. Needless to say, adding these to your system will free it from its shackles, producing "better definition, greater depth and transparency of soundstage and more solid imaging"...

Would you buy those, too?


Funnily enough, my own (floorstanding) speakers have rather a lot of sand in them! They're a bugger to move.


Very odd choice to have been using it in the first place.

what exactly is in this mains conditioner? is it just spike and surge suppression or does it do something else to the sinusoidal mains cycle that a set of decent audio grade caps and associated components in the psu dont filter out? does anyone know? the electricity board dont guarantee their 50Hz is spot on all the time and they are also not obliged to provide and earth for your house so there are a number of other variables that a conditioner cant provide you?

I have just bought a Toshiba 1080p TV and the manual states that if I want to guarantee 1080p quality to only use Cat2 HDMI cables with a max length of 1.8mtrs, these cables are compatible with earlier receivers etc but the originals are not.
They are available on Amazon at the moment at under £10-00 which appears to be a good price.