[pad_ehh]

I bought this Home Cinema Set and want to use it with my Sky+ (I am getting Sky+HD installed in 11 days).

It doesn't have an optical input (which I didn't know until it was opened) so how do I connect my Sky+ system to get 5.1 surround sound (or can I)?

On another note....... > I love the speakers and have an old subwoofer from an old Acoustic Solutions set-up which DOES have an Optical port which I can use with the speakers, but there is no volume control for the individual speakers as the RF receiver for the remote is built in to the center speaker of the old speakers (so I can't alter the individual speaker volume level from what it is already set at, I can only alter the overall volume). Should I use (or is there a problem with using) a different subwoofer than the one that came with the speakers just to get the optical output? I believe they gave out different sound wattage so I don't want there to be a oversurge of power that could destroy speakers / subwoofer / TV etc.

Thanks guys.

Paddy

[MAW]

It must have stereo phono input? You have that on sky. If it has electrical coax digital, you can buy optical to coaxial converters, they work well. But this is basically a bit of cheap crap, and I wouldn't bank on it sounding better than your TV.
Separate sub, of course you can, you can connect the audio out on your TV to it. Just make sure it has line level in, you may in fract be better using the headphone socket on your TV if it has one, cos it'll be volume controlled.

[Willie Wontie]

It costs £50 - it's obviously going to be rubbish. That's less than the cost of one speaker in a real surround sound system.

Even if you could connect something that outputs DD5.1/DTS to it, do you honestly think it's going to sound any good? The speakers on your telly will probably do a better job.

Take it back to Argos using the argument that it won't let you connect anything with true digital surround sound to it, and buy something that includes the speakers (i.e. surround speakers) and the connections to enable you to connect Sky to it. You want at least two digital connections - optical for Sky, and optical or coaxial for DVD (depending what digital outputs your DVD player/recorder has).

[RobAnt]

Quote:

5.1 surround sound

Depemds on what you call 5.1 surround. If it has Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby PSII then it will process the L/R analogue input received via a SCART lead or the red/white (sometimes red/black) two channel phono inputs.

You won't need to do anything else except press a button, maybe.

Just because something has a digital input, doesn't necessarily mean you'll get Dolby Digital 5.1 (or any other DD spec). So check that other system. Does it specifically state Dolby Digital - or just Dolby Pro Logic? There are also a whole raft of cheap "copycat" types.

Confused by the statement on the website you give, which states it will connect to almost any DVD player. How does it do that?

I can't find a site which gives the specifications for this unit - so if anyone has a link, let's take a look at it. Without that we're as much in the dark as the OP.

Frankly, though, I'd stick it in my car and drive down to the council tip, where it'll be recycled. Hopefully into a can opener, or something else equally useful.

OP, why don't you experiment with the idea of mixing the two systems? You've got absolutely nothing to lose - 'cos no one in their right mind is going to buy them from you, so they're absolutely worthless.

[pad_ehh]

Sorry, I don't know why the link pointed to that system, that's not what I bought, it was this one - http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...er/5337400.htm

I am currently using the speakers for that new set with the old subwoofer so I can change the volume of individual speakers and also connect the Sky+ box by optical output to it. No complaints of the sound so far, everyone who has sat in the room has commented on how good it sounds compared to just the traditional sound coming from the front speaker of the TV.

One thing though, what is the best way to have the volume for the speakers set up? Is it better to have the rear speakers set up a bit higher than the front speakers or to have the centre speaker quieter than the left and right ones? It does sound good on large action sequences with guns and explosions but during other scenes the back speakers don't seem to do much at all, it's all from the front. I even have the subwoofer down to it's lowest setting and it still makes one hell of a rumble even on something that isn't even that loud!

Paddy

[Gadget Guy]

Generally speaking you want roughly the same volume from each speaker though it is difficult to compare the volume of low frequencies from the sub with speech or high freq effects from the other speakers. The system should have a test button which will emit a test tone from each speaker 1 at a time so you can adjust them individually. In practise its a question of personal taste and spending some time tweaking it to suit which will even vary from 1 type of film to another.
Moving the speakers slightly can also have noticeable effects as sound is reflected from differently from walls and furniture. You will never be 100% happy with the sound so you just have to spend some time getting it how you like it.
Its a common mistake to turn up the sub too much for those window shaking effects. The other posters are correct when they say it is very much a budget system and will out perform the tv speakers in power if not quality but you could do better for a little more money spent somewhere like Richer Sounds and take some of their advice.
Remember nothing is set in stone and its just a case of what you're happy with. Hope that helps.

[pad_ehh]

Thanks Gadget Guy. Although the set-up is budget (credit crunch remember!) I am quite happy with the set. The subwoofer can be set to anything from -9 to +9 and even when set to -5 it still makes a good rumbling sound for scenes where there is plenty of base-y action going on. I did actually have one complete surround sound experience I was quite surprised and happy with, out of all the films that were available, RoboCop 2 was on Sky Movies and the scene where the criminals catch him and cut him into pieces gave all 5 speakers a workout with all the saw noises, electrical whirring, pneumatic drilling, screaming and echoes from the large open factory building the scene took place in. It certainly made it more of an experience hearing the sound coming in from all around you than hearing it from the one speaker on the side of the TV. That was just a tester though, I am looking forward to sitting down with an empty house and the lights off to enjoy a proper movie experience some night I get peace!

Paddy

[Chris Frost]

Paddy C, a lot of folk prefer the rears a bit louder so they get more of a feeling of a surround effect when the volume is at a reasonable level. Try it and see what you think.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Paddy C, a lot of folk prefer the rears a bit louder so they get more of a feeling of a surround effect when the volume is at a reasonable level. Try it and see what you think.

I personally prefer the system setup as recommended by Dolby/THX where all channels are calibrated to the same level/db - I suppose this carries over from how I like to view the content too, all in the correct ratio. I prefer to see and hear and see what the director has intended and keep as to near as to the original as possible.

As you say, there's nothing written in stone and it will be down to what the user prefers and what they think sounds best to them.

[Chris Frost]

Let's not get too annal about this, eh? For a start we're looking at a £70 pseudo-surround system

Yes, DD/THX is the ideal, and where ever possible that is the standard to work to, but real life isn't that straight forward, is it? I've installed and set up enough systems in real living rooms to accept that compromises are sometimes necessary and often inevitable.

Also it's worth remembering that calibrating to tones at a reference level of 70 or 80dB is different to listening at normal family levels. If the family like a little rear levels boost for the average listening volume that they find comfortable then I'm not going to turn around and tell them George Lucas says no

[RobAnt]

The biggest problem is that there are no listed specifications, so can't even assess what it can/can't do.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Let's not get too annal about this, eh? For a start we're looking at a £70 pseudo-surround system

Yes, DD/THX is the ideal, and where ever possible that is the standard to work to, but real life isn't that straight forward, is it? I've installed and set up enough systems in real living rooms to accept that compromises are sometimes necessary and often inevitable.

Also it's worth remembering that calibrating to tones at a reference level of 70 or 80dB is different to listening at normal family levels. If the family like a little rear levels boost for the average listening volume that they find comfortable then I'm not going to turn around and tell them George Lucas says no

Whether it be £70 or £700 having it calibrated to a recommended spec will get the best out of the system.

It's will be the quality to what you are listening too in regards the £70 systems, not how it arrives at you.

There will be compromises, that's why most systems allow you to make adjustments to various settings (distances and delays) to overcome these, you can still adhere to the recommended levels.

Setting to 70-80db has no relation to how loud you listen to the system, it just ensures that the whole system is balanced no matter what levels you listen too.

And who's getting annal?

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobAnt

The biggest problem is that there are no listed specifications, so can't even assess what it can/can't do.

Basic 5.1 setup would be....

Front three speakers same height and equal distances apart, preferably the left and right either side of the TV.

Surrounds on the side wall level or just behind the listening position.

Sub at the front.

Speaker levels should be 70db for all channels.

Distances and delays set accordingly.

Setting the delays manually - start with the speaker furthest away, this will be 0ms, then move to the next speaker adding 1ms per foot to how much closer it is to where you are sat, do this for all speakers, you shuold finish with the speaker closest to you.

[RobAnt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Basic 5.1 setup would be....

Front three speakers same height and equal distances apart, preferably the left and right either side of the TV.

Surrounds on the side wall level or just behind the listening position.

Sub at the front.

Speaker levels should be 70db for all channels.

Distances and delays set accordingly.

Setting the delays manually - start with the speaker furthest away, this will be 0ms, then move to the next speaker adding 1ms per foot to how much closer it is to where you are sat, do this for all speakers, you shuold finish with the speaker closest to you.

I think you've missunderstood what I meant by "listed specifications". I'm fully aware of how a hi-fi surround system should be implemented.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobAnt

I think you've missunderstood what I meant by "listed specifications". I'm fully aware of how a hi-fi surround system should be implemented.

So I misunderstood, no reason to use the rolleyes smiley when someone is trying help is there.

[Chris Frost]

Deacon1972, Well done for the help you are trying to give. There's nothing wrong with your methodology. I just feel it's perhaps a little OTT for a system at this sort of price level. OK?

First off, this isn't a DD or even a DPL surround system as far as I can tell. There's no reference to Dolby of any description on the adverts at Argos or Amazon. It's got some sort of pseudo-surround effect from a DSP chip but that's about it.

Second, I'd be very surprised if there are any options to set speaker distances - or if there are then they might be in whole meters or yards. You're lucky to get distance settings in anything less than whole feet on most DD/DPL equipped all-in-one systems at less than a couple of hundred quid.

Third, do you think that a guy with a budget of £70 for a surround system is going to have a budget of £30 - £40 fort a sound meter he'll use once?

Finally, our ears are less sensitive to bass and treble at lower volumes. That's why many amps and receivers have a Loudness button. Boosting surround levels a couple of dBs is a useful trick to counter that sensitivity loss. It's also at the customers discretion. It's their system, they paid for it, they can use it how they see fit.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Deacon1972, Well done for the help you are trying to give. There's nothing wrong with your methodology. I just feel it's perhaps a little OTT for a system at this sort of price level. OK?

My post was not guidance/advice for the OP in how they should set there system up - it was basically a reply to your earlier post to how some listeners like there systems setup. I was posting my preference.

The help I thought I was offering was to Rob, but I have been put in my place regarding that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

First off, this isn't a DD or even a DPL surround system as far as I can tell. There's no reference to Dolby of any description on the adverts at Argos or Amazon. It's got some sort of pseudo-surround effect from a DSP chip but that's about it.

Second, I'd be very surprised if there are any options to set speaker distances - or if there are then they might be in whole meters or yards. You're lucky to get distance settings in anything less than whole feet on most DD/DPL equipped all-in-one systems at less than a couple of hundred quid.

I too would be very surprised if this system had any calibration settings built in, it will basically be plug and play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Third, do you think that a guy with a budget of £70 for a surround system is going to have a budget of £30 - £40 fort a sound meter he'll use once?

No I don't think they will have a budget of £30-£40 to spend on a sound meter, but again, my reference to calibrated sound levels was in connection to my personal settings not how they should be setting their system up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Finally, our ears are less sensitive to bass and treble at lower volumes. That's why many amps and receivers have a Loudness button. Boosting surround levels a couple of dBs is a useful trick to counter that sensitivity loss. It's also at the customers discretion. It's their system, they paid for it, they can use it how they see fit.

Never come across this "loudness button", I am only familiar with DRC or "night mode", where the amp cuts the low and high frequecies.

I wouldn't have thought turning up the rears would help with sensitivity, especially for the bass as these lower frequecies would be coming from the sub.

Settings are down to the listener and will be a personal choice, which is what I have said and agreed with earlier, all I came on for was to say what my preference was regarding sound levels - which is why started the post with " I personally prefer" and ended the post with, "As you say, there's nothing written in stone and it will be down to what the user prefers and what they think sounds best to them".

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

My post was not guidance/advice for the OP in how they should set there system up - it was basically a reply to your earlier post to how some listeners like there systems setup. I was posting my preference.

Sorry, but when I read it it came across as a bit condescending - but you've explained now that it wasn't your intention.

Loudness buttons are really something from stereo music amps and stereo music receivers. I should have been more clear there. However, the function works just as I said previously; it boosts bass and treble. This improves intelligibility at low listening volumes.

AV amps and AV receivers have Night Mode as you pointed out, but my understanding is that this function compresses the dynamics i.e. it makes the loud bits not as loud. It doesn't cut the high and low frequencies, that would be counter-productive.

I always thought DRC was Sony's abbreviation for the name for their picture scaling engine.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

AV amps and AV receivers have Night Mode as you pointed out, but my understanding is that this function compresses the dynamics i.e. it makes the loud bits not as loud. It doesn't cut the high and low frequencies, that would be counter-productive.

I always thought DRC was Sony's abbreviation for the name for their picture scaling engine.

A cut in volume to the low/high frequencies, not cutting them out - cut probably wasn't the right term to use, I just used it because you were referring to adding volume to the low/high frequencies in regards to the loudness button.

Dynamic Range Control can be found on Denon amps, which is the amp I use.

[Chris Frost]

Ah - Denon call it DRC. OK, thanks for that.

I think you're still getting your definitions of frequency and dynamic range mixed up.

An example of a high frequency sound is the tsst tsst tsst sound from cymbal. It's the sound that your tweeter would reproduce.

An example of a low frequency sound is the boom of an explosion. It's the sound that your subwoofer would reproduce.

The dynamic range is the difference in volume between a whisper and an explosion.

DRC/Night Mode reduces the difference between the loud explosions and the much quieter dialogue and background effects. In the strictest sense that's all it does. It's nothing really to do with the bass and treble frequencies - the booms and the tssts.

A loudness button on a stereo amp makes the booms and the tssts louder without affecting the midrange. It's affecting the bass and treble frequency extremes. The feature was designed to compensate for the human ear's loss of sensitivity to frequency extremes at low volumes. So if you stick with your idea that DRC reduces the bass and treble at low listening volumes then it would make the sound worse not better. Do you see?

So, how does all this relate to rear speaker set up.

I said that customers often listen at sound levels lower than where we calibrate, but they still want to hear a lot happening from the rears even when it should really be ambience only. Adding a couple of dBs extra to the rear channels keeps them happy.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Ah - Denon call it DRC. OK, thanks for that.

I think you're still getting your definitions of frequency and dynamic range mixed up.

An example of a high frequency sound is the tsst tsst tsst sound from cymbal. It's the sound that your tweeter would reproduce.

An example of a low frequency sound is the boom of an explosion. It's the sound that your subwoofer would reproduce.

The dynamic range is the difference in volume between a whisper and an explosion.

DRC/Night Mode reduces the difference between the loud explosions and the much quieter dialogue and background effects. In the strictest sense that's all it does. It's nothing really to do with the bass and treble frequencies - the booms and the tssts.

And you accussed me of being condescending.

I'm well aware of where certain frequencies come from and what DRC is.

DRC cuts the dynamic range by equalising out the db level of frequencies, noteably the lower/higher ones as these are the most common when soundtracks come across as dynamic. Where a soundtrack is allowed to play untouched (DRC disabled) it may reach 105db, engage DRC and it will resrict the output by reducing the overall level, this could be reduced to something like to 85db.

I'd say DRC is more effective on action movies where special FX are notably much louder, explosions - lower frequencies (sub), breaking glass - higher frequencies (tweeter), not as effective on a drama as it's mostly dialogue.

To put it in simple terms - DRC is like an automatic volume control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

A loudness button on a stereo amp makes the booms and the tssts louder without affecting the midrange. It's affecting the bass and treble frequency extremes. The feature was designed to compensate for the human ear's loss of sensitivity to frequency extremes at low volumes. So if you stick with your idea that DRC reduces the bass and treble at low listening volumes then it would make the sound worse not better. Do you see?

Never said it was for listening at low levels and it's not my idea. What I said was - I hadn't come across this loudness feature and that I only knew about DRC/night mode. What I do know is DRC acts in the oposite way to your loudness button, it reduces db level to frequencies it doesn't increase them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

So, how does all this relate to rear speaker set up.

I said that customers often listen at sound levels lower than where we calibrate, but they still want to hear a lot happening from the rears even when it should really be ambience only. Adding a couple of dBs extra to the rear channels keeps them happy.

You said "Boosting surround levels a couple of dBs is a useful trick to counter that sensitivity loss." How is turning up the surrounds a couple of db going to help someone who sufferers sensitivitey loss with low frequencies, as it will be the lowest frequencies they will be missing and it will be the sub outputting these frequencies not the surrounds?

Those who want to listen to the surrounds louder than recommended are probably those who watch in fatty vision, don't like black bars and listen to 2channel stereo in DPLII. They prefer the surrounds blasting out instead of them giving an ambience feel to the soundtrack which is how it is intended. At the end of the day it's up to them, but my preference is for the system to be set at recommended levels. Basically that's all I wanted to say, didn't expect to be accussed of being annal and condescending because of it.

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

And you accussed me of being condescending.

Well I'm very sorry but you did seem to be struggling with the difference between dynamic range and frequency

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

How is turning up the surrounds a couple of db going to help someone who sufferers sensitivitey loss with low frequencies, as it will be the lowest frequencies they will be missing and it will be the sub outputting these frequencies not the surrounds?

We're not talking about people who have a hearing disabilities. I'm trying to talk to you sensibly about how the human ear works. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to spell out every last thing in minute painstaking detail just because you feel like being difficult just for the sake of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Never said it (DRC) was for listening at low levels and it's not my idea. What I said was - I hadn't come across this loudness feature and that I only knew about DRC/night mode.

You're the one who brought DRC in to a conversation about listening at low volumes. How was that relevant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

DRC acts in the oposite way to your loudness button, it reduces db level to frequencies it doesn't increase them.

Denon's manuals don't mention DRC altering the frequency characteristics of the sound. All they write is...

Quote:

DRC
Compress dynamic range (difference between loud and soft sounds).
This can be set in the Dolby TrueHD mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

Those who want to listen to the surrounds louder than recommended are probably those who watch in fatty vision, don't like black bars and listen to 2channel stereo in DPLII. They prefer the surrounds blasting out instead of them giving an ambience feel to the soundtrack which is how it is intended. At the end of the day it's up to them,

Oh get over yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

...my preference is for the system to be set at recommended levels. Basically that's all I wanted to say, didn't expect to be accussed of being annal and condescending because of it.

Well fine, you've said it. I think you made a complete meal of it, but at least you've managed to get it of your chest, eh? I think I'll get on with the rest of my life now.

[pad_ehh]

If I may jump back in a second between the squabble!

I have left the set up back. The look of the speakers was perfect, but the connections at the back of the subwoofer wern't, nor was the sound after I got listening to it for a few hours.

I'm gonna keep the money and save up a bit more and buy a more expensive set, possibly even a matching Soy one to go with the TV and the BluRay player I shall hopefully be getting for Christmas!

Thanks for your help everyone, I'll probably be back on asking more questions once I get the new set!

Paddy

[Chris Frost]

Good on ya, fella