I think Rachel is undermarked each week...yes, she can be a bit mechanical when she dances but she has fabulous flashes of drama and she is so likeable...Len seems to really dislike her. 
What Does Rachel Have To Do.....???
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Originally Posted by Jocko Homo:
“I think he's disappointed with her. I get the feeling she was one of his early front runners, and now she isn't living up to his expectations he is annoyed about it. Doesn't excuse his dismissive attitude towards her which I find far more insulting than anything Craig usually says.”
“I think he's disappointed with her. I get the feeling she was one of his early front runners, and now she isn't living up to his expectations he is annoyed about it. Doesn't excuse his dismissive attitude towards her which I find far more insulting than anything Craig usually says.”
Well, here's Len in the NOTW on Sept 21st:
Quote:
“SHE’S small, compact, good-looking and a nice age—not too young to be stupid, not too old to be grumpy. She’s got great potential and Vincent will be well up for it. But sometimes you get a funny “maybe not” feeling . . . I’ve got that. Everyone who knows nothing about dancing tells me she’s the favourite. I hope I’m wrong. I’m gonna put her going out around the last six. At this rate I’ll have ten in the last six!”
“SHE’S small, compact, good-looking and a nice age—not too young to be stupid, not too old to be grumpy. She’s got great potential and Vincent will be well up for it. But sometimes you get a funny “maybe not” feeling . . . I’ve got that. Everyone who knows nothing about dancing tells me she’s the favourite. I hope I’m wrong. I’m gonna put her going out around the last six. At this rate I’ll have ten in the last six!”
In other words, his opinion of her has been much the same from the start. She wasn't one of his front runners. He's had a "maybe not" feeling all along.
I think her dancing and her personality don't match, shes a good dancer but she dosn't connect with the audience, but I do think what else can she give to do better
Thought Rachel started off well with her jive; she was smiling and looked quite sparkly, but then she lost it.
Not sure if it was because she made a mistake, or whether she had timing issues, but Vincent kept having to stop for a few beats to get her back on time, which ruined the flow of the what was otherwise a good routine.
Technically she wasn't good either; jive should be danced largely on the ball of the foot, with the heel going to the floor only on a back step. Rachel was flat-footed, which not only made the dance look heavy, but would also have made it a lot harder to do.
What does she have to do? Lighten up, I think. I understand she is meant to be a singer, so she should have some idea of musicality and rhythm, unfortunately so far she hasn't really shown it.
It is a huge shame, I feel. She seems a really sweet girl and I'd love to see her come out next week and really "sock to 'em baby".
Not sure if it was because she made a mistake, or whether she had timing issues, but Vincent kept having to stop for a few beats to get her back on time, which ruined the flow of the what was otherwise a good routine.
Technically she wasn't good either; jive should be danced largely on the ball of the foot, with the heel going to the floor only on a back step. Rachel was flat-footed, which not only made the dance look heavy, but would also have made it a lot harder to do.
What does she have to do? Lighten up, I think. I understand she is meant to be a singer, so she should have some idea of musicality and rhythm, unfortunately so far she hasn't really shown it.
It is a huge shame, I feel. She seems a really sweet girl and I'd love to see her come out next week and really "sock to 'em baby".
Originally Posted by kaycee:
“Thought Rachel started off well with her jive; she was smiling and looked quite sparkly, but then she lost it.
Not sure if it was because she made a mistake, or whether she had timing issues, but Vincent kept having to stop for a few beats to get her back on time, which ruined the flow of the what was otherwise a good routine.
Technically she wasn't good either; jive should be danced largely on the ball of the foot, with the heel going to the floor only on a back step. Rachel was flat-footed, which not only made the dance look heavy, but would also have made it a lot harder to do.
What does she have to do? Lighten up, I think. I understand she is meant to be a singer, so she should have some idea of musicality and rhythm, unfortunately so far she hasn't really shown it.
It is a huge shame, I feel. She seems a really sweet girl and I'd love to see her come out next week and really "sock to 'em baby".”
“Thought Rachel started off well with her jive; she was smiling and looked quite sparkly, but then she lost it.
Not sure if it was because she made a mistake, or whether she had timing issues, but Vincent kept having to stop for a few beats to get her back on time, which ruined the flow of the what was otherwise a good routine.
Technically she wasn't good either; jive should be danced largely on the ball of the foot, with the heel going to the floor only on a back step. Rachel was flat-footed, which not only made the dance look heavy, but would also have made it a lot harder to do.
What does she have to do? Lighten up, I think. I understand she is meant to be a singer, so she should have some idea of musicality and rhythm, unfortunately so far she hasn't really shown it.
It is a huge shame, I feel. She seems a really sweet girl and I'd love to see her come out next week and really "sock to 'em baby".”
Cheers Kaycee - that was an interesting read
I know very little about the technicalities of dance (I'm just picking bits up from ITT and the judges) so it's always good to have an insight from someone who clearly does!
Originally Posted by Sid_1979:
“Cheers Kaycee - that was an interesting read
I know very little about the technicalities of dance (I'm just picking bits up from ITT and the judges) so it's always good to have an insight from someone who clearly does!”
“Cheers Kaycee - that was an interesting read
I know very little about the technicalities of dance (I'm just picking bits up from ITT and the judges) so it's always good to have an insight from someone who clearly does!”
Thank you, Sid, my pleasure.
Sometimes I think technique has to be ignored - for example, I honestly can't see how celebs can be expected to remember which step to take on a heel or a toe every time in a ballroom dance, as some people can take years to get that right all the time; but other technique (such as with the jive) actually makes the dance so much easier.
I can't figure out what it is (or isn't) about Rachel that I can't warm to. I love Vincent and had hoped that this partnership would be a good one for him but I can see where people are coming from when they call Rachel dull. She's very good technically (to my uneducated eyes) but I'm always disappointed after her performance each week. I agree with the theory that Len doesn't like her for some reason but I think he had some valid points tonight. He just was too aggressive in his criticism. I thought tonight's jive lacked flow and wasn't 'bouncy' enought. It was nowhere near as good as Louisa's for me. I would love Rachel to have a breakthrough week where people go 'Wow!' but it's a long time coming. 
Hmm. Watching it again, she doesn't look flat-footed to me, most of the time, though she was better towards the start than towards the end.
I think Craig was spot on when he said there were some sticky transitions where it looked a little bit lumpy and lost its impetus. In some of them, I think the choreography was unnecessarily complicated. (Like: she slides under him, then is pulled back out, going up in the air, then landing to crouch down while he turns and takes one leg over her head as he goes, then pulls her through his legs from behind; she stands then has to do a turn under his arm. *breathes*)
Also, watching Louisa's again, the parts where one of them is going under the other were simpler - nothing as complicated as what I described above - yet they were still slightly awkward. (In other words, such things are hard enough without the extra complexity.)
I can't help thinking that he'd have done better to simplify the choreography a bit and spend more time on building the performance and fun aspects instead. Rachel could let herself go more if she didn't have to get so complicated a routine right.
I think Craig was spot on when he said there were some sticky transitions where it looked a little bit lumpy and lost its impetus. In some of them, I think the choreography was unnecessarily complicated. (Like: she slides under him, then is pulled back out, going up in the air, then landing to crouch down while he turns and takes one leg over her head as he goes, then pulls her through his legs from behind; she stands then has to do a turn under his arm. *breathes*)
Also, watching Louisa's again, the parts where one of them is going under the other were simpler - nothing as complicated as what I described above - yet they were still slightly awkward. (In other words, such things are hard enough without the extra complexity.)
I can't help thinking that he'd have done better to simplify the choreography a bit and spend more time on building the performance and fun aspects instead. Rachel could let herself go more if she didn't have to get so complicated a routine right.
Originally Posted by Daisy_M:
“I can't figure out what it is (or isn't) about Rachel that I can't warm to.”
“I can't figure out what it is (or isn't) about Rachel that I can't warm to.”
Rachel is small, has a pretty but flattish face and maintains an expression any poker player would be proud of, rarely looking anybody in the eye. Compare this with the charismatic Kristina who tonight blew 2 kisses straight at the active camera (the one showing a red light which she observantly spotted). Tonight Rachel finished with the best spin I have ever seen from any celeb, but the flourish was muffled. What is missing is
Zing.
It is as if Rachel is embarassed to be different, that she thinks of herself as the girl next door, well the 30-year-old woman next door with shopping and ironing to do, now given some time off for makebelieve on the dance floor. She herself said she was far more comfortable performing on stage as part of a group. Alesha you felt was always comfortable as a soloist, front of stage. It was Alesha's birthright.
Having been out tonight (
having to record Strictly!!) I've just finished watching the recording and to be honest I'm a bit peeved!!
Thanks for starting this thread Sid - because I would have done otherwise!!!
What IS it with Len regarding Rachel and Vincent?
I LOVE watching them dance and always find them engaging. When you look at the standard of some of the other dances tonight, IMO Rachel was the best female dancer - with Jodie close behind.
I'm just so fed up with the negativity against them. yes, I know some posters mention her lack of 'zing' or expression (a flat face? What has that to do with anything?) but for me, they are the most exciting couple left in the contest.
I've always quite liked Tom's dancing but tonight I really wanted to slap that grotesque face he was pulling in order to get into character.
Lets not beat about the bush - Cherie was awful tonight. Worse than Heather and not really any better than Andrew.
John was John, Christine was okay but not great. Austin was pretty good (not sure about 10 good though).
Lisa was okay but overmarked I thought. Really enjoyed Jodie and Ian.
I know I'm rambling on and I don't want to put the other contestants down but I'm befuddled and bemused.
I feel for Rachel and Vincent - they must be at the end of their tether. Vincent was so sweet asking Rachel if she'd enjoyed it and saying 'well, that's all that matters'.
I wish I could have voted tonight! Curse going out for a lovely meal!
having to record Strictly!!) I've just finished watching the recording and to be honest I'm a bit peeved!!Thanks for starting this thread Sid - because I would have done otherwise!!!
What IS it with Len regarding Rachel and Vincent?
I LOVE watching them dance and always find them engaging. When you look at the standard of some of the other dances tonight, IMO Rachel was the best female dancer - with Jodie close behind.
I'm just so fed up with the negativity against them. yes, I know some posters mention her lack of 'zing' or expression (a flat face? What has that to do with anything?) but for me, they are the most exciting couple left in the contest.
I've always quite liked Tom's dancing but tonight I really wanted to slap that grotesque face he was pulling in order to get into character.
Lets not beat about the bush - Cherie was awful tonight. Worse than Heather and not really any better than Andrew.
John was John, Christine was okay but not great. Austin was pretty good (not sure about 10 good though).
Lisa was okay but overmarked I thought. Really enjoyed Jodie and Ian.
I know I'm rambling on and I don't want to put the other contestants down but I'm befuddled and bemused.
I feel for Rachel and Vincent - they must be at the end of their tether. Vincent was so sweet asking Rachel if she'd enjoyed it and saying 'well, that's all that matters'.
I wish I could have voted tonight! Curse going out for a lovely meal!
Len always seems to have a couple he sort of targets. Last year it was Kelly & Brendan. I thought the comment he made was terrible. At least even if the others are harsh they give some guidance on how to improve. He pretty much said, this was your dance and nothing else you do could be better than this. She's never going to wow him. That is how I would have understood it in her position anyway. Of course, she still might but now she has to face that expectation of being flat every time.
I think she did really well. Especially at the start, and if anything it was the choreography towards the end that let it down a bit. I think last week she captured the romance of the VW really well (which can be a bit boring to watch anyway) and looking back at her salsa, that was a great performance. I hope she comes back fighting and doesn't let the comments from Len affect her performances.
I think she did really well. Especially at the start, and if anything it was the choreography towards the end that let it down a bit. I think last week she captured the romance of the VW really well (which can be a bit boring to watch anyway) and looking back at her salsa, that was a great performance. I hope she comes back fighting and doesn't let the comments from Len affect her performances.
I was put off by the creaky transitions.
Arlene is right about driving off the floor because she got no bounce.
Also - where were the flicks from the knee?
Nah, a jive has to be fun! Mad, all-out fun.
If you see her music vids she has a fairly icy persona. That may be a reflection of her real self. I dunno. But she does NOT sell a dance.
Arlene is right about driving off the floor because she got no bounce.
Also - where were the flicks from the knee?
Nah, a jive has to be fun! Mad, all-out fun.
If you see her music vids she has a fairly icy persona. That may be a reflection of her real self. I dunno. But she does NOT sell a dance.
Could I please ask why comparisons are made between this year's dancers and previous year's?
As a long-time SCD fan, I have become very tired of the programme but continued to loyally tune in to it, the results show and ITT. I know so very little about dancing but am usually able to identify the flaws that the judges will highlight...... But nothing prepared me for Len's launch at Rachel last night and I had to come on here to see what other people thought.
Generally speaking, it seems that most feel the same as I do and that Len's criticism was unkind at best and harsh and unwarranted at worst - BUT -
Even (thank goodness) the Judges (as they should) don't refer to contenstants from previous series - so why on earth does it happen on here? It's (almost) fair enough to be compared to those within the programme but still is a little odd when they perform different dances.... But to compare Rachel to Louisa, Jill and Alesha.. why? Serves no purpose. Their own improvement should be taken into account and the requirements of the dance; why anything more than that. (Plus, with regard to this forum, what if someone simply hasn't watched it before? It just turns the forum into a bit of a "closed shop" if you
ask me.)
As a long-time SCD fan, I have become very tired of the programme but continued to loyally tune in to it, the results show and ITT. I know so very little about dancing but am usually able to identify the flaws that the judges will highlight...... But nothing prepared me for Len's launch at Rachel last night and I had to come on here to see what other people thought.
Generally speaking, it seems that most feel the same as I do and that Len's criticism was unkind at best and harsh and unwarranted at worst - BUT -
Even (thank goodness) the Judges (as they should) don't refer to contenstants from previous series - so why on earth does it happen on here? It's (almost) fair enough to be compared to those within the programme but still is a little odd when they perform different dances.... But to compare Rachel to Louisa, Jill and Alesha.. why? Serves no purpose. Their own improvement should be taken into account and the requirements of the dance; why anything more than that. (Plus, with regard to this forum, what if someone simply hasn't watched it before? It just turns the forum into a bit of a "closed shop" if you
ask me.)
Rachel hasn't yet wowed me but then neither have any of the others. Despite Len's comments she and Vincent still scored well last night. My main observation about her jive was that the kicks could have been sharper but I also thought Lisa's movements lacked precision besides Brendan's. In the jive where the dancers spend some of the time side by side it's easier to compare the dancers with their pro partners. Rachel & Vincent's dances have been my favourites most weeks and I expect to see them in the semi-final at least.
I think it's good to discuss previous shows and series.
After all, if you don't watch professional dance then Jill's jive (let's say for the sake of argument) becomes a kind of gold-standard for the jive. Then people will check it out on youtube and from there compare Louisa or Mark or whomsoever.
If you're a newcomer to SCD then you may well want to widen your knowledge. And the judges DO refer back to other contestants. GMTV presenters and so on...
I think Len was rather unpleasantly dismissive. It's all very well to be disappointed (as I am in Rachel) in a performance or even a sequence of performances but he didn't say anything constructive and his body language was awful. He leaned back as if to say: Just b***** off now.
I don't think she's got the spark you need to endear people to you or to win the show but she's a decent dancer. He could have said something about technical issues and left it at that. He gave her a good mark though...
It's just Len being an @rse. Bruno says some quite scathing things but he manages to pass it off with less contempt. Craig too.
After all, if you don't watch professional dance then Jill's jive (let's say for the sake of argument) becomes a kind of gold-standard for the jive. Then people will check it out on youtube and from there compare Louisa or Mark or whomsoever.
If you're a newcomer to SCD then you may well want to widen your knowledge. And the judges DO refer back to other contestants. GMTV presenters and so on...
I think Len was rather unpleasantly dismissive. It's all very well to be disappointed (as I am in Rachel) in a performance or even a sequence of performances but he didn't say anything constructive and his body language was awful. He leaned back as if to say: Just b***** off now.
I don't think she's got the spark you need to endear people to you or to win the show but she's a decent dancer. He could have said something about technical issues and left it at that. He gave her a good mark though...
It's just Len being an @rse. Bruno says some quite scathing things but he manages to pass it off with less contempt. Craig too.
I was disappointed, as I thought they would wow everyone with the jive, I usually love Vincen't choreography but he should have put more"jive" into it and let her "dance" more rather than all the tricky stuf. f I agree with one of the previous posts that Len is probably angry that as far as he is concerned she isn't showing her true potential but his remarks seem scathing and not constructive at all. I don't know what Rachel & Vincent can do now to please Len, but lets not forget he isn't the only judge, though he does have that final say if they every got into the bottom two.
I have to agree with Len. The dance was very disappointing- she looked like she was having a job to keep up with Vincent. I cannot warm to her - don't know why. She seems to be walking through the dance & no bounce whatsoever! Overmarked & underwhelming!
Actually as I said on another thread, I'm not a Rachel and Vincent fan. However, I don't agree with Len, and for anything I thought they were undermarked yesterday. I thought Rachel was clearly performing and enjoying the dance. I'm not a dancer, so I can't comment on the technicalities, but it certainly looked good to me. Len came across like a crumpy old man yesterday.
Last edited by lach doch mal : 02-11-2008 at 10:44
Last edited by lach doch mal : 02-11-2008 at 10:44
Originally Posted by ava2007:
“I was disappointed, as I thought they would wow everyone with the jive, I usually love Vincen't choreography but he should have put more"jive" into it and let her "dance" more rather than all the tricky stuf. f I agree with one of the previous posts that Len is probably angry that as far as he is concerned she isn't showing her true potential but his remarks seem scathing and not constructive at all. I don't know what Rachel & Vincent can do now to please Len, but lets not forget he isn't the only judge, though he does have that final say if they every got into the bottom two.”
“I was disappointed, as I thought they would wow everyone with the jive, I usually love Vincen't choreography but he should have put more"jive" into it and let her "dance" more rather than all the tricky stuf. f I agree with one of the previous posts that Len is probably angry that as far as he is concerned she isn't showing her true potential but his remarks seem scathing and not constructive at all. I don't know what Rachel & Vincent can do now to please Len, but lets not forget he isn't the only judge, though he does have that final say if they every got into the bottom two.”
Perhaps that is the problem - Len had preconceived ideas of Rachel's potential and feels she has fallen short of his expectations - thus the harsh comments.
Had he assumed she would be useless and delivered that performance his comments and marks would be very different.
Originally Posted by lach doch mal:
“Actually as I said on another thread, I'm not a Rachel and Vincent fan. However, I don't agree with Len, and for anything I thought they were undermarked yesterday. I thought Rachel was clearly performing and enjoying the dance. I'm not a dancer, so I can't comment on the technicalities, but it certainly looked good to me. Len came across like a crumpy old man yesterday.”
“Actually as I said on another thread, I'm not a Rachel and Vincent fan. However, I don't agree with Len, and for anything I thought they were undermarked yesterday. I thought Rachel was clearly performing and enjoying the dance. I'm not a dancer, so I can't comment on the technicalities, but it certainly looked good to me. Len came across like a crumpy old man yesterday.”
This is how I feel too. Rachel was clearly enjoying the dance, and it looked good to me.
I thought Len was very harsh, way too harsh. I even said 'ouch' when he had finished.
I hope she doesn't take too much of that to heart and carries on enjoying herself.
Len is getting ridiculous now. "If a little dynamite like you can't wow me with that dance, you never will". She's never shown herself to be a "little dynamite". She's really shy. Little, yes, dynamite, no.
Also, I have rewatched their jive a few times. I was unsure the first time but the more I watch it the more I like it. You expect something a little different from a jive and Vincent's less traditional choreography lends itself to some uncertainty on first viewing.
Also, I have rewatched their jive a few times. I was unsure the first time but the more I watch it the more I like it. You expect something a little different from a jive and Vincent's less traditional choreography lends itself to some uncertainty on first viewing.
She just doen't light up the floor and give it that extra bit of attack.
to compare her to past female contestants such as Louisa and Alesha you can see that there is just something lacking. She is a very good technical dancer; but it doesn't WOW you as it should.
I don't think she will ever be like that, no matter how much the judges say 'it lacked that bit more performance' as I don't think she's got it in here.
Whereas if you compare her to someone like Christine who is in the show and getting worse scores than her, you can see when she dances (barring the paso) that she is actually performing it and giving it that extra bit more. Christine may not be technically as good; but I find her dances alot more enjoyable as she performs them better.
to compare her to past female contestants such as Louisa and Alesha you can see that there is just something lacking. She is a very good technical dancer; but it doesn't WOW you as it should.
I don't think she will ever be like that, no matter how much the judges say 'it lacked that bit more performance' as I don't think she's got it in here.
Whereas if you compare her to someone like Christine who is in the show and getting worse scores than her, you can see when she dances (barring the paso) that she is actually performing it and giving it that extra bit more. Christine may not be technically as good; but I find her dances alot more enjoyable as she performs them better.
It's strange with Rachel, she appears to have it all, stunningly beautiful, killer body, natural ability and a performance background, but for some reason she just doesn't spark on the dance floor, and doesn't seem to connect with the audience - no idea why 
Sat there expecting to be wowed by their jive, especially after the pre-dance trail with them at the club where Rachel seemed to be loving it, and then watched it feeling completely 'meh' about it, I did agree with Len, it was competant, but lacked any zest and zing - I do hope she can sort it out, or she could be in trouble in a couple of weeks time
Sat there expecting to be wowed by their jive, especially after the pre-dance trail with them at the club where Rachel seemed to be loving it, and then watched it feeling completely 'meh' about it, I did agree with Len, it was competant, but lacked any zest and zing - I do hope she can sort it out, or she could be in trouble in a couple of weeks time
Originally Posted by Psychosis:
“Len is getting ridiculous now. "If a little dynamite like you can't wow me with that dance, you never will". She's never shown herself to be a "little dynamite". She's really shy. Little, yes, dynamite, no.
Also, I have rewatched their jive a few times. I was unsure the first time but the more I watch it the more I like it. You expect something a little different from a jive and Vincent's less traditional choreography lends itself to some uncertainty on first viewing.”
“Len is getting ridiculous now. "If a little dynamite like you can't wow me with that dance, you never will". She's never shown herself to be a "little dynamite". She's really shy. Little, yes, dynamite, no.
Also, I have rewatched their jive a few times. I was unsure the first time but the more I watch it the more I like it. You expect something a little different from a jive and Vincent's less traditional choreography lends itself to some uncertainty on first viewing.”
As Sid said - that remark suggests he's already written her off - difficult to come back from that and sparkle.
I hope she can if only to put Len in his place.
I'm not a big fan of her, but I must admit I though some of the judges comments were a little harsh- I enjoyed her dance and thought it was really good, but then again, what do I know?
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