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I have had little problem understanding what they sing. Anybody else? |
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#1 |
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I have had little problem understanding what they sing. Anybody else?
I haven't had a problem understanding the words coming from any of the singers mouths.
Anyway, when Dannii mentioned diction in the auditions I wondered what she was going on about. Diction is a term used by speech therapist or elocutionists to improve the way people talk. In singing, people generally join words or when you apply a certain note or a certain key to a song, it changes the phonetic nature and structure of the word or words. I've done music theory so I know this but I am a music fan too. People, a lot of people do sing like this. Some people do say it is important but they are clinically destroying music because every singer does it. I've been to opera and misheard people all the time but it's about how they sing most of the time and not what they sing. That being said, I have listened to a lot of albums in my time and yes I have had difficulty understanding a word sometimes but that doesn't remove the fact I dislike the song or the artist. Some of my favourite artists, in fact all of them, release songs and I wonder "what did he/she say then?" I have not had a problem with the X Factor contestants though. I am sure they apply a limiter or a compressor on all their voices before they air them so it doesn't send a distortion so, if there is a problem with "diction", there wouldn't be. Music is an art form and the emotion of the music gives an impression of the lyrics being sung. So am I saying I blame Dannii for this new found mention of diction (inaccurately)? Yes I do. It is irrelevant. I know Dannii's voice has changed since she came from Australia so maybe she picked this up during elocution lessons because she sounds a lot more clearer and has more of an English accent to her voice. Still - not an issue in singing at all. I have a lot of trouble understand Rock singers by the way but it still sounds amazing because they are outstanding musicians some of them that most of these finalists (bar Ruth, Laura and Diana) could touch musically but a few who don't play the same chord are amazing musicians. I don't understand them but it is still outstanding music. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Spot on, and lot's of my fav songs you can;t hear everyword they;re saying especailly when they're sang fast, anyone listed to it's the end of the world as we know it by rem
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#3 |
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Spot on, and lot's of my fav songs you can;t hear everyword they;re saying especailly when they're sang fast, anyone listed to it's the end of the world as we know it by rem
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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The reason I listen to music is to feel something and I think the words are incredibly important (im a musical theatre performer so i probably would). If I can't understand what they are saying, I can't connect to the story they are telling, the emotions they are portraying. In that case the singer just become an instrument which makes sound (albeit a nice one sometimes), rather than a performer or an artist.
So for me fairly consistant diction is incredibly important. Bad diction disconnects me from an artist, I might as well be listening to a peice of music without a singer, its a real indulgence in your own tone I have to say, during the audition stage when Danni mentioned diction I was thinking the exact same thing. |
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#5 |
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The only one I had trouble understanding was Laura when she did the one where she started lying down. I didn't understand a single word of it, she could have been singing in another language and I wouldn't have known. I quite liked the performance but probably would have liked it better if I could hear the words clearly.
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#6 |
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The reason I listen to music is to feel something and I think the words are incredibly important (im a musical theatre performer so i probably would). If I can't understand what they are saying, I can't connect to the story they are telling, the emotions they are portraying. In that case the singer just become an instrument which makes sound (albeit a nice one sometimes), rather than a performer or an artist.
So for me fairly consistant diction is incredibly important. Bad diction disconnects me from an artist, I might as well be listening to a peice of music without a singer, its a real indulgence in your own tone I have to say, during the audition stage when Danni mentioned diction I was thinking the exact same thing. Its very different for all other types of music. |
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#7 |
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I didn't understand Laura well last week, but she was fine this week. Diana doesn't have good diction at all, but neither is it appalling, it's only bad because of her singing technique, and I do think it improved last night. It was bad for 'Smile' but understandable every other performance.
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#8 |
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But in musical theatre diction is important and that is why a lot of musical theatre is in the same key. You sing to tell a story - so it'sa different kettle of fish altogether.
Its very different for all other types of music. ![]() Its easy to jump on the musical theatre thing and say thats why what im saying is invalid- but I haven't been an MT all my life and ive always felt this way. I don't judge every song on shows like X-factor by the same diction standards at which i'd judge a musical theatre performance, but seriously if you can't tell what they are saying why did the lyricists bother writing the words in the first place. Lyricism is an art and should be shown some respect. |
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#9 |
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A lot of musical theatre music is in the same key?!
![]() Its easy to jump on the musical theatre thing and say thats why what im saying is invalid- but I haven't been an MT all my life and ive always felt this way. I don't judge every song on shows like X-factor by the same diction standards at which i'd judge a musical theatre performance, but seriously if you can't tell what they are saying why did the lyricists bother writing the words in the first place. Lyricism is an art and should be shown some respect. Well, about the lyrics - as I said, I fail to understand people apart from a few times, yet with lyrics, certain words are chosen for their phonetic qualities and their poetic nature to go with the music. Even a poem is a rhythm and a certain movement and people can as with music, identify the emotion of the poem from the rhythm. Now, this doesn't mean the lyrics aren't important but it does mean that music over-rides diction. Now, if the words were important, write a story, write a book - it is a lyric because it requires music and the lyrics need to be chosen to follow the register of the music and therefore, since they are written for music, this is why the music is more important than the lyrics. Yet in musical theatre it is important to know what the person is singing and therefore the time register is therefore as such as well as the key. In general music there is more creativity because you are not telling a story. On top of that and importantly, diction is generally taught in musical theatre but as you state lyrics, a poet will not change the words of their poem because they want people to be overly in tune with the words. If that was the case, the poet would just write a book or a story instead. Music is a far different art form where diction is very little of importance. You write music because you don't want to write a story. That's where the differences of the art forms come through and the choice of the artist between writing a book and writing lyrics and music. |
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#10 |
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i think it can make a huge difference if you know the words to the song too.
I have understood Laura up till now with the exception of the beginning of last weeks song but thats cos she was struggling to stand whilst singing!! and last night Diana sang a well known song so again i had no problems But if i am unfamiliar with the song the pronunciation can seem a little muffled as my hearing isnt attuned. |
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#11 |
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I don't have a problem understanding any of them. If I can't hear every word perfectly I wouldn't notice anyway. I listen to the melody, rythm and tone of voice too.
Lyrical importance isn't universal. Some very big hits have lyrics that are frivoulous sometimes make very little sense. |
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#12 |
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Quote:
i think it can make a huge difference if you know the words to the song too.
I have understood Laura up till now with the exception of the beginning of last weeks song but thats cos she was struggling to stand whilst singing!! and last night Diana sang a well known song so again i had no problems But if i am unfamiliar with the song the pronunciation can seem a little muffled as my hearing isnt attuned. |
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#13 |
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I don't have a problem understanding any of them. If I can't hear every word perfectly I wouldn't notice anyway. I listen to the melody, rythm and tone of voice too.
Lyrical importance isn't universal. Some very big hits have lyrics that are frivoulous sometimes make very little sense. |
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#14 |
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I like to understand every single word a vocalist is singing (unless they're singing in a foreign language, of course!)
Some singers have excellent diction and timing to their voices. However, there are others who just slur their words, take breaths in all the wrong places, and lazily cut bits off the end of sentences. I find said vocalists difficult to listen to. I also don't like British singers singing with 'mid-Atlantic' or fake American accents. On the subject of The X Factor, what's with the horn-like honking at the end of just about every sentence Diana sings? It drives me mad!
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#15 |
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Yeah it is in the same key to go with a certain time register.
Well, about the lyrics - as I said, I fail to understand people apart from a few times, yet with lyrics, certain words are chosen for their phonetic qualities and their poetic nature to go with the music. Even a poem is a rhythm and a certain movement and people can as with music, identify the emotion of the poem from the rhythm. Now, this doesn't mean the lyrics aren't important but it does mean that music over-rides diction. Now, if the words were important, write a story, write a book - it is a lyric because it requires music and the lyrics need to be chosen to follow the register of the music and therefore, since they are written for music, this is why the music is more important than the lyrics. Yet in musical theatre it is important to know what the person is singing and therefore the time register is therefore as such as well as the key. In general music there is more creativity because you are not telling a story. On top of that and importantly, diction is generally taught in musical theatre but as you state lyrics, a poet will not change the words of their poem because they want people to be overly in tune with the words. If that was the case, the poet would just write a book or a story instead. Music is a far different art form where diction is very little of importance. You write music because you don't want to write a story. That's where the differences of the art forms come through and the choice of the artist between writing a book and writing lyrics and music. I appreciate that they are differnet art forms and I certainly understand why artists use different artforms to express themselves (I wrote my dissertation on that!) However, I feel like you are contradicting yourself- if the artist simply wanted to express themselves through music then why write a song including lyrics? Why not write a piece of music without words? How can you say its not important to hear the words? Don't get me wrong, of course you can enjoy songs when you haven't heard every single word, but if you want to be taken seriously as an artist you have to be able to let people hear what you are saying. |
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#16 |
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Perhaps they taught me very differently at drama school, I just don't understand the generalisations you are making about key and time signiture (register?) in musical theatre- they are certainly not all written in the same key to go with the same time!
I appreciate that they are differnet art forms and I certainly understand why artists use different artforms to express themselves (I wrote my dissertation on that!) However, I feel like you are contradicting yourself- if the artist simply wanted to express themselves through music then why write a song including lyrics? Why not write a piece of music without words? How can you say its not important to hear the words? Don't get me wrong, of course you can enjoy songs when you haven't heard every single word, but if you want to be taken seriously as an artist you have to be able to let people hear what you are saying. Have you listened to artists like Snoop? Eminem? Kings of Leon? Elvis and Cash? All considered serious artists and all of them have or have had successful careers. I could fill an A4 pad with a list of the songs that I've misheard the words on. |
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#17 |
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Perhaps they taught me very differently at drama school, I just don't understand the generalisations you are making about key and time signiture (register?) in musical theatre- they are certainly not all written in the same key to go with the same time!
I appreciate that they are differnet art forms and I certainly understand why artists use different artforms to express themselves (I wrote my dissertation on that!) However, I feel like you are contradicting yourself- if the artist simply wanted to express themselves through music then why write a song including lyrics? Why not write a piece of music without words? How can you say its not important to hear the words? Don't get me wrong, of course you can enjoy songs when you haven't heard every single word, but if you want to be taken seriously as an artist you have to be able to let people hear what you are saying. I do agree with you to a point and I do think this is differing to what I say above but I still agree with you - although my overall point is (if I were to talk about diction) let me say it doesn't always matter and as above, I didn't understand the Beatles, Floyd, U2 or other great bands and artists but they did have their lyrics on album sleeves and CD booklets. So I'm saying that, yes, people can say, as is being said on the forum - diction is important but there are so many areas where we don't understand what people sing and we have lyric sites (one of the most popular sites on the net) and we have booklets and also people asking for lyrics - because people don't get the words because of the nature in which music is made (remarking on my point of, if words were important, write a book). So going with your last sentence about being taken seriously, some of the greatest albums in the world and greatest soul artists - were the most misheard. It happens a lot more times than can even be possibly mentioned. |
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#18 |
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In popular music?
Have you listened to artists like Snoop? Eminem? Kings of Leon? Elvis and Cash? All considered serious artists and all of them have or have had successful careers. I could fill an A4 pad with a list of the songs that I've misheard the words on. |
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#19 |
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As I said before, i'm not talking about every single lyric, im talking about general diction. Of course people mishear lyrics- but what if you can barely understand them at all?!
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#20 |
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As I said before, i'm not talking about every single lyric, im talking about general diction. Of course people mishear lyrics- but what if you can barely understand them at all?!
Caleb Underhill mumbles his way through most of the songs, he yodels. In short he uses his voice as an instrument to enhance the music rather than as an instrument to deliver a monologue. Elvis Presley was famous for his mumblings and people still imitate him to this day. I understand the vast majority of the words that Laura and Diana sing. If you say you can't understand any of them, and are not just indulging in hyperbole, I'd suggest an ear test. Seriously. |
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#21 |
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Time register is more music and time signature is more recording so that's the difference there.
I do agree with you to a point and I do think this is differing to what I say above but I still agree with you - although my overall point is (if I were to talk about diction) let me say it doesn't always matter and as above, I didn't understand the Beatles, Floyd, U2 or other great bands and artists but they did have their lyrics on album sleeves and CD booklets. So I'm saying that, yes, people can say, as is being said on the forum - diction is important but there are so many areas where we don't understand what people sing and we have lyric sites (one of the most popular sites on the net) and we have booklets and also people asking for lyrics - because people don't get the words because of the nature in which music is made (remarking on my point of, if words were important, write a book). So going with your last sentence about being taken seriously, some of the greatest albums in the world and greatest soul artists - were the most misheard. It happens a lot more times than can even be possibly mentioned. I really don't think that technology giving us bvetter access to lyrics is a good reason to not pronounce them properly in the first place. If words are important, write a book? Well if the sound is important then just write a piece of music. It works both ways- the whole point is the way the words connect WITH the music, they way specific vowel sounds are used on certain notes/chords, the rhythm of the words chosen and the way they workl with the music to express the artist. The whole point is that it creates something that can't be express by either just music/words. You NEED both. |
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#22 |
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Clearly they are teaching me differently- I have always been taught that time signature is the musical notation for how many beats to a bar.
I really don't think that technology giving us bvetter access to lyrics is a good reason to not pronounce them properly in the first place. If words are important, write a book? Well if the sound is important then just write a piece of music. It works both ways- the whole point is the way the words connect WITH the music, they way specific vowel sounds are used on certain notes/chords, the rhythm of the words chosen and the way they workl with the music to express the artist. The whole point is that it creates something that can't be express by either just music/words. You NEED both. You think it's important, very important. I'm saying it hasn't been important since music was ever made. Agree to disagree. |
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#23 |
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Have you listened to an early Kings of Leon album (the early stuff was the best btw)?
Caleb Underhill mumbles his way through most of the songs, he yodels. In short he uses his voice as an instrument to enhance the music rather than as an instrument to deliver a monologue. Elvis Presley was famous for his mumblings and people still imitate him to this day. I understand the vast majority of the words that Laura and Diana sing. If you say you can't understand any of them, and are not just indulging in hyperbole, I'd suggest an ear test. Seriously. Regarding Diana and Laura- i've never mentioned them in this thread! I'm talking about the importance of diction in performers, ive not mentioned any names. If thats who people think they are defending when they are bantering against me then thats nothing to do with me! |
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#24 |
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well i know that it has never stopped me enjoying Addicted to love even though every time i hear it I swear i hear "might as well accept it you're a dick with a glove"
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#25 |
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Not a Kings of Leon fan- sorry so can't comment. Elvis i've always understood. and going back to Eminem before- i think he'd be gutted if he thought people couldn't understand his lyrical poetry due to poor diction! (although again, not a fan!).
Regarding Diana and Laura- i've never mentioned them in this thread! I'm talking about the importance of diction in performers, ive not mentioned any names. If thats who people think they are defending when they are bantering against me then thats nothing to do with me! Regardless, as Beer said, we have to agree to disagree. You are clearly looking for different things than I am. Variety is the spice of life and all that. |
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