Does anyone know how the judges mark in Dancing Competitions i.e what percentage do they award for technique, interpretation, choreography?
Question re Dancing Competitions
Though I cant tell you re dancing competitions I have just written this in another thread as I thought it was vaguely relevant to what was said and it may help slightly
'Coming from a judging point of view (though admittedly other sports) giving only one score to include both technical and performance aspects is a very difficult thing to balance - especially as the mark can only go from 1 to 10 (or in Len's case 4-10) with no half marks. That is very limiting. You have to know in your own head which technical faults you find more problematic than others, and whether a small technical error can be outweighed by a greater level of performance. Not only that, but to judge you may be asked to justify why you have marked someone in a certain way and be able to do so.
So whilst you (or I) may consider any particular judge to be inconsistent, they all come from different backgrounds and are looking for slightly different things, but they are consistent to what they believe a performance should emcompass.
Does that make sense? or have I just spouted a whole load of gobbledegook?! Probably the latter Doing judging training is very educational (and highly entertaining at times) with groups of people assessing and marking one performance - and then having to justify what they have done (often whilst being barracked by others!) '
I'm know there are lots of people here who dance who can tell you a lot more than I can, but it is one perspective from judging in other subjective sports
'Coming from a judging point of view (though admittedly other sports) giving only one score to include both technical and performance aspects is a very difficult thing to balance - especially as the mark can only go from 1 to 10 (or in Len's case 4-10) with no half marks. That is very limiting. You have to know in your own head which technical faults you find more problematic than others, and whether a small technical error can be outweighed by a greater level of performance. Not only that, but to judge you may be asked to justify why you have marked someone in a certain way and be able to do so.
So whilst you (or I) may consider any particular judge to be inconsistent, they all come from different backgrounds and are looking for slightly different things, but they are consistent to what they believe a performance should emcompass.
Does that make sense? or have I just spouted a whole load of gobbledegook?! Probably the latter Doing judging training is very educational (and highly entertaining at times) with groups of people assessing and marking one performance - and then having to justify what they have done (often whilst being barracked by others!) '
I'm know there are lots of people here who dance who can tell you a lot more than I can, but it is one perspective from judging in other subjective sports
Thanks ditzyfish. The main reason I ask is that Arlene and Bruno criticise mostly on interpretation which is a very personal thing and difficult to gauge . I would guess in competitions 60% of the marking would be for technique and the rest for interpretation and choreography. I know we have some competition experts on the forum.
Originally Posted by Paace:
“Does anyone know how the judges mark in Dancing Competitions i.e what percentage do they award for technique, interpretation, choreography?”
“Does anyone know how the judges mark in Dancing Competitions i.e what percentage do they award for technique, interpretation, choreography?”
In competitions judges do not give marks. If there are - say - 18 couples in one event, the couples would normally dance their 5 dances in 2 heats and the judges would choose 12 to go through to the next round - the semi final. From the 12 in the semi, they will choose 6 for the final. When the dance the final the judges will place each couple from 1st to 6th. These 'placings' are then taken to the scrutineer who will take the judges placings and work out the couples placings. [I used the number 18 couples only as an example, some big comps may have 200+ couples in one event).
The judges will look at overall technique, footwork, choreography, musicality etc and most important of all Timing. A couple can appear to dance a really good dance, but if their timing is out they will not make the next round.... Needless to say, this is seldom an issue with top class or professional dancers - although I have seen it happen!
In Strictly, Arlene and Bruno will criticise mostly on interpretation because that is what they know. They are choreographers of stage dance; they have never been involved with ballroom/latin. Craig also is mostly Stage, though he did some ballroom when he was younger. Len is the only "ballroom/latin" judge on the panel.
[sorry that's so long winded.... bet you're wishing you hadn't asked!!!!!!]
Thanks kaycee, very interesting. I'm surprised they don't award marks, so they must have a verbal agreement as to who is best. I just don't know how the celebs can get the timing in certain dances with some of the awful modern music they include.
Judges never discuss their marks whilst judging and marks can vary widely which is why an official scrutineer is required to sort the marks out
Originally Posted by kaycee:
“In competitions judges do not give marks. If there are - say - 18 couples in one event, the couples would normally dance their 5 dances in 2 heats and the judges would choose 12 to go through to the next round - the semi final. From the 12 in the semi, they will choose 6 for the final. When the dance the final the judges will place each couple from 1st to 6th. These 'placings' are then taken to the scrutineer who will take the judges placings and work out the couples placings. [I used the number 18 couples only as an example, some big comps may have 200+ couples in one event).
The judges will look at overall technique, footwork, choreography, musicality etc and most important of all Timing. A couple can appear to dance a really good dance, but if their timing is out they will not make the next round.... Needless to say, this is seldom an issue with top class or professional dancers - although I have seen it happen!
In Strictly, Arlene and Bruno will criticise mostly on interpretation because that is what they know. They are choreographers of stage dance; they have never been involved with ballroom/latin. Craig also is mostly Stage, though he did some ballroom when he was younger. Len is the only "ballroom/latin" judge on the panel.
[sorry that's so long winded.... bet you're wishing you hadn't asked!!!!!!]”
“In competitions judges do not give marks. If there are - say - 18 couples in one event, the couples would normally dance their 5 dances in 2 heats and the judges would choose 12 to go through to the next round - the semi final. From the 12 in the semi, they will choose 6 for the final. When the dance the final the judges will place each couple from 1st to 6th. These 'placings' are then taken to the scrutineer who will take the judges placings and work out the couples placings. [I used the number 18 couples only as an example, some big comps may have 200+ couples in one event).
The judges will look at overall technique, footwork, choreography, musicality etc and most important of all Timing. A couple can appear to dance a really good dance, but if their timing is out they will not make the next round.... Needless to say, this is seldom an issue with top class or professional dancers - although I have seen it happen!
In Strictly, Arlene and Bruno will criticise mostly on interpretation because that is what they know. They are choreographers of stage dance; they have never been involved with ballroom/latin. Craig also is mostly Stage, though he did some ballroom when he was younger. Len is the only "ballroom/latin" judge on the panel.
[sorry that's so long winded.... bet you're wishing you hadn't asked!!!!!!]”
Thanks for the serious and intelligent reply to a good question.
Is it not also the case that in early rounds of major competitions when large numbers compete , a couple's number has to appear on several judge's lists in order to get through to the next round
Originally Posted by bendymixer:
“Judges never discuss their marks whilst judging and marks can vary widely which is why an official scrutineer is required to sort the marks out”
“Judges never discuss their marks whilst judging and marks can vary widely which is why an official scrutineer is required to sort the marks out”
So I'm guessing by yours and kaycee replies the judges don't give any feedback to the couples.
Originally Posted by arddunol:
“Is it not also the case that in early rounds of major competitions when large numbers compete , a couple's number has to appear on several judge's lists in order to get through to the next round”
“Is it not also the case that in early rounds of major competitions when large numbers compete , a couple's number has to appear on several judge's lists in order to get through to the next round”
Yes that's true. It's the couples who get chosen by the most number of judges who go through, so in an early round where there are large numbers of couples, you would need to get 'chosen' by all the judges for all the dances, to guarantee a place in the next round. Apart from being able to dance to the required standard, the couples also have to make sure their number is seen by all the judges - surprisingly difficult if the floor is crowded and you are dancing something like a rumba or cha cha that don't move around the floor like the "travelling" dances.
Originally Posted by Paace:
“So I'm guessing by yours and kaycee replies the judges don't give any feedback to the couples.”
“So I'm guessing by yours and kaycee replies the judges don't give any feedback to the couples.”
No, the judges don't give any feedback - they're not there to critique, just to judge. However, if a particular judge doesn't appear to like someone when all the other judges do, then if that couple approach that judge after the event, and ask why, that judge will usually tell them what it is about their dancing he/she doesn't like.
For example: our coach placed a couple who were known to be very good dancers in 1st place in 4 dances, but 6th place in the 5th dance. This happened on more than one occasion at various competitions, so the couple in question went up to our coach and asked him what he didn't like about their quickstep. Nothing, he told them, it's a very good quickstep - and when you manage to dance it on time, then I'll place you higher!!!
Originally Posted by Paace:
“Thanks kaycee, very interesting. I'm surprised they don't award marks, so they must have a verbal agreement as to who is best. I just don't know how the celebs can get the timing in certain dances with some of the awful modern music they include.”
“Thanks kaycee, very interesting. I'm surprised they don't award marks, so they must have a verbal agreement as to who is best. I just don't know how the celebs can get the timing in certain dances with some of the awful modern music they include.”
Most of what they play on Strictly is nothing like they would play in a competition. Music is normally provided by specially produced cds, or if it is live music, then by bands who know and understand strict tempo music. Lots of modern music is used though, but it is usually re-recorded to make sure the tempo is correct.
Originally Posted by kaycee:
“Most of what they play on Strictly is nothing like they would play in a competition. Music is normally provided by specially produced cds, or if it is live music, then by bands who know and understand strict tempo music. Lots of modern music is used though, but it is usually re-recorded to make sure the tempo is correct.”
“Most of what they play on Strictly is nothing like they would play in a competition. Music is normally provided by specially produced cds, or if it is live music, then by bands who know and understand strict tempo music. Lots of modern music is used though, but it is usually re-recorded to make sure the tempo is correct.”
Many thanks for your replies kaycee, very illuminating and much appreciated.
Blackpool Festival of Dance, largest in the world, is as good as the annual olympics of dance. I gather there is a Professional Section, for youngsters a Rising Stars Section, then for over-35's the Senior Section.
SCD is from inception Pro-Am, with 3 of our 4 judges not pro dancers, with all 4 wanting to become TV celebrities in their own right, and to that end rehearsing dramatic utterances in advance to play to the gallery.
Not surprising if dancers who went through blood, sweat and injuries to succeed in Blackpool on dance merit think that SCD is debasing competition into pantomime. Come Dancing did not though, but for its purity lost the chief ingredient of SCD, namely 10 milliion viewers -- persons who are not Pro-Am, but pure Am.
For the good of all there needs to be give and take?
SCD is from inception Pro-Am, with 3 of our 4 judges not pro dancers, with all 4 wanting to become TV celebrities in their own right, and to that end rehearsing dramatic utterances in advance to play to the gallery.
Not surprising if dancers who went through blood, sweat and injuries to succeed in Blackpool on dance merit think that SCD is debasing competition into pantomime. Come Dancing did not though, but for its purity lost the chief ingredient of SCD, namely 10 milliion viewers -- persons who are not Pro-Am, but pure Am.
For the good of all there needs to be give and take?
Originally Posted by Paace:
“So I'm guessing by yours and kaycee replies the judges don't give any feedback to the couples.”
“So I'm guessing by yours and kaycee replies the judges don't give any feedback to the couples.”
No they don't - and there would not be the time - there are many different catergories in a competition divided by age and grade etc so at some competitions there could be many dancers. Most competitions do leave the mark sheets of the scrutineer out after the comp has finished and competitors can look and see how they were marked
Originally Posted by soulmate61:
“Blackpool Festival of Dance, largest in the world, is as good as the annual olympics of dance. I gather there is a Professional Section, for youngsters a Rising Stars Section, then for over-35's the Senior Section.
SCD is from inception Pro-Am, with 3 of our 4 judges not pro dancers, with all 4 wanting to become TV celebrities in their own right, and to that end rehearsing dramatic utterances in advance to play to the gallery.
Not surprising if dancers who went through blood, sweat and injuries to succeed in Blackpool on dance merit think that SCD is debasing competition into pantomime. Come Dancing did not though, but for its purity lost the chief ingredient of SCD, namely 10 milliion viewers -- persons who are not Pro-Am, but pure Am.
For the good of all there needs to be give and take?”
“Blackpool Festival of Dance, largest in the world, is as good as the annual olympics of dance. I gather there is a Professional Section, for youngsters a Rising Stars Section, then for over-35's the Senior Section.
SCD is from inception Pro-Am, with 3 of our 4 judges not pro dancers, with all 4 wanting to become TV celebrities in their own right, and to that end rehearsing dramatic utterances in advance to play to the gallery.
Not surprising if dancers who went through blood, sweat and injuries to succeed in Blackpool on dance merit think that SCD is debasing competition into pantomime. Come Dancing did not though, but for its purity lost the chief ingredient of SCD, namely 10 milliion viewers -- persons who are not Pro-Am, but pure Am.
For the good of all there needs to be give and take?”
I think the word 'Amateur' in competiton dancing is confusing to some - Amateur in this instance means they dont teach dance or derive payment for dancing from any toher source
Indeed the World Amateur Champions once they turn Professional can ofter end up right at the top of the Professional ranks
In SCD many celebs are genuine amateurs who not only earn nothing from dance but they have not danced a step since their wedding day twirl. In this forum 60% have confirmed themselves as non-dancers though highly interested. Among the 10 million TV audience probably more so. The licence payers know what they like and will not be told, this much is clear.
On the judges panel Craig looks for style and aesthetics, Arlene pinpoints faults then looks for improvement, Bruno forever seeks musical theatre and story-telling, while Len demands heel leads. In such a broad church with bishops routinely coming to blows it is hardly surprising if the congregation follow suit. Anyone who does not believe protestant-catholic wars and witch burnings at the stake only needs to look at this week's battle lines in the forum.
How about if we fight only on Saturdays and Sundays?
On the judges panel Craig looks for style and aesthetics, Arlene pinpoints faults then looks for improvement, Bruno forever seeks musical theatre and story-telling, while Len demands heel leads. In such a broad church with bishops routinely coming to blows it is hardly surprising if the congregation follow suit. Anyone who does not believe protestant-catholic wars and witch burnings at the stake only needs to look at this week's battle lines in the forum.
How about if we fight only on Saturdays and Sundays?
Originally Posted by kaycee:
“ in an early round where there are large numbers of couples, you would need to get 'chosen' by all the judges for all the dances, to guarantee a place in the next round. Apart from being able to dance to the required standard, the couples also have to make sure their number is seen by all the judges - surprisingly difficult if the floor is crowded and you are dancing something like a rumba or cha cha that don't move around the floor like the "travelling" dances.”
“ in an early round where there are large numbers of couples, you would need to get 'chosen' by all the judges for all the dances, to guarantee a place in the next round. Apart from being able to dance to the required standard, the couples also have to make sure their number is seen by all the judges - surprisingly difficult if the floor is crowded and you are dancing something like a rumba or cha cha that don't move around the floor like the "travelling" dances.”
Actually that's not really true.... it is possible, especially on a crowded dance floor, for some decent couples to be 'missed' by some judges, especially in the latin dances where they don't move much from one place. So to progress through a round, a couple will need a certain number of Xs (e.g. given 3/5 judges for a one-dance competition), but they don't need every single mark from every single judge, usually.
