[maltaron]

With the final demise of analogue VCRs. Digital has finally killed Hi Fi. At least the video guys are making an effort to bring quality digital TV but with audio we have now to suffer highly compressed MP3 with no harmonics to produce richness in the music and totally flat amplitude. No doubt the digital fans will say how wonderfully clean it is, but that is the point - its too clean. They have obviously never heard a perfect analogue recording played on high quality equipment.

[Willie Wontie]

I've still got a hifi, with CD player, turntable, twin cassette deck, radio and graphic equaliser. All still works fine. I don't think I've ever listened to an MP3 in my life...

[sancheeez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltaron

we have now to suffer highly compressed MP3

Just use FLAC or WAV or something that isn't compressed.

You don't have to use MP3.

Or do you just not like digital at all .... even uncompressed?

(Please note .... I do still have a turntable and a large pile of vinyl myself .... although the vinyl is forced to live in the garage these days)

[maltaron]

Congrats Willie, look after it and your analogue media. My biggest regret was selling all my vinyl when I downsized to a bungalow. Still got Technics amps, CD, MD, Tape etc and three VHS players should last me out.

[Andy Carlton]

I often use a 28yr old Panasonic stack system (Tape deck/Analogue dial tuner/Amp & turntable)
- no CD player but there is an aux input for one but no room to stack it as it comes in it's own hi-fi unit.

Been having problems getting a stylus for the turntable so it looks like i am going to have to replace the cartridge, also the speaker wire could do with upgrading...but it is all in excellent condition and fully working and it beats the quality of MP3 hands down.

Analogue has wider dynamics than all these MP3/compressed formats.

[maltaron]

Just saw Sancheese post. No, I am not totally anti-digital, allthough as a retired AV technician I do know that audio and video are analogue mediums and you cannot see or hear in digital, therefore conversion from analogue to digital and back will allways lose something. I have some digital recordings on Mini Disk that were copied uncompressed from high quality and clean vinyl and these are acceptable but still lack the harmonics. This will allways be the case as digital audio is normally sampled at 44khz and this cannot work above about 15k. One point about MP3, most music is supplied on MP3 so the choice isnt great

[RobAnt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltaron

you cannot see or hear in digital

Actually this is a matter of some debate. You could apply the argument that the brain is a biological/chemical neural network computer with super high recording resolution and is therefore a very high definition digital computer.

The fact that we haven't yet developed a digital medium with higher resolution than the brain (although it is close enough to fool many of us), or a super quiet (no noise) analogue recording medium, is merely an indication of the level of technology we currently possess.

[r_mitchell85]

Personally, I will always have a hifi in my home. Ive only recently brought a new separates system and I regularly use the cd player, turntable, cassette deck and fm tuner.

I CAN plug in my ipod, but I hardly ever use it, because I think the sound quality is much better when you're listening to a CD or LP.

But I guess to the average man on the street... they don't give a shit if their music is on mp3 or cd or whatever, it all sounds the same to them.

[streekie]

i sold 2 nakamichi dragons on ebay within the last 12 months so some out there are still buying what the mp3 generation would class as outdated technology

[RobAnt]

Quote:

Death of HIFI

I think we're a long way away from this. HD-DVD/Blu-ray, CD & DVD provide exceptionally high quality digital audio, and even hi-fi vinyl turntables & magnetic cartridges compare more than well enough to make MP3 sound like listening to something set in glue. Indeed, I wouldn't even class it as good enough to compare favourably with cassette audio with dolby noise reduction applied.

No, I have an mp3 player, and for reasons of convenience I might choose to play mp3 music on my hifi via my computer. But when push comes to shove and I really want to sit down and watch a movie, or listen to an album I'll dig out the original CD/DVD/Blu-Ray disk, and wallow in the very best, glorious bubble of sound, my rather modest hifi systems can generate.

[r_mitchell85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobAnt

I think we're a long way away from this. HD-DVD/Blu-ray, CD & DVD provide exceptionally high quality digital audio, and even hi-fi vinyl turntables & magnetic cartridges compare more than well enough to make MP3 sound like listening to something set in glue. Indeed, I wouldn't even class it as good enough to compare favourably with cassette audio with dolby noise reduction applied.

agree 100%. If you're listening on a semi-decent hifi system, it is BLATENTLY obvious when you're listening to mp3, it just sounds horrible.

[mathertron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltaron

Congrats Willie, look after it and your analogue media. My biggest regret was selling all my vinyl when I downsized to a bungalow. Still got Technics amps, CD, MD, Tape etc and three VHS players should last me out.

You do know CD and MD are digital media too right?

[Andy Carlton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r_mitchell85

agree 100%. If you're listening on a semi-decent hifi system, it is BLATENTLY obvious when you're listening to mp3, it just sounds horrible.

Too true!

Listen to a 'Linn' or the classic Roksan range of turntable's around £1'500 + and many will wonder why CD (and especially MP3) ever took off.

Listening to analogue vinyl using the correct equipment can be a breathtaking experience.

It is not only a vibration free turntable that is important...but also the cartridge, amp and speakers of which also play an important role of delivering true audio quality.

Many would be surprised at how much a true audiophile would spend matching their ideal system to their specific requirements....however, having heard a 'Cyrus' system of which consisted of around 7-8 units including pre-amps etc....at a price tag of just under £10'000....i was not impressed whatsoever with it's audio quality for a system of that price. (quite disappointed to be honest)

Even with todays technology....there is only a limit one can achieve with audio quality.

http://www.audiolimits.com/html/roksan_turntable.html

[Quickblood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r_mitchell85

But I guess to the average man on the street... they don't give a shit if their music is on mp3 or cd or whatever, it all sounds the same to them.

Yeah Mp3 sounds great to most people and add to that the convenience factor it doesn't bother most of us. Plus it never seems to sound anywhere near as bad as audiophiles seem to suggest. Really all points considered I'm kinda glad that I'm not an audiophile.

[martinwatkins]

A lot of it's down to the way the original material is recorded. In the days when dynamics compression was frowned on, and when engineers took the decisions about recording techniques, and when bit-rate compression didn't exist, digital audio (ie CD's DAT's etc) sounded in the main absolutely marvellous.

The arrival of bit rate compression (which handed economic savings to bean counters and space savings to consumers), and the introduction of lamentable audio compression on FM radio (which has now it seems seeped through to the recording studio as well) have prostituted a lot of sound to the point where I - for one - simply switch off.

But in the main that's not the fault of digital, it's the way it's been "used" (in all senses of the word) by people who know little and care less about the word that started this thread: "high fidelity".

I no longer buy any contemporary-music CD which says "remastered" on it. Because I know it's had audio compression applied. The CD's that haven't suffered this fate sound superb. The ones that have have a scratchy edgy feel to them

But don't blame digital, blame the fancy box that the fancy young engineer thought would "improve" the original sound!

[gomezz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Carlton

Listen to a 'Linn' or the classic Roksan range of turntable's around £1'500 + and many will wonder why CD (and especially MP3) ever took off.

Listen to a typical turntable in a typical system at a typical budget for most households and you have your answer.

[Ragnarok]

Mp3 has shockingly bad artifacts. when will people move to better formats or go lossless.

Bizarre how Hope cinema is making leaps forward moving toward lossless 24 bit audio or at least improved versions of dolby digital, of course loads and loads of dynamic range.

Of course other audio is compressed to shreds even before people put it on there Ipods!!!! is 0-3 dbs of dynamic range even musical???

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltaron

Just saw Sancheese post. No, I am not totally anti-digital, allthough as a retired AV technician I do know that audio and video are analogue mediums and you cannot see or hear in digital, therefore conversion from analogue to digital and back will allways lose something. I have some digital recordings on Mini Disk that were copied uncompressed from high quality and clean vinyl and these are acceptable but still lack the harmonics. This will allways be the case as digital audio is normally sampled at 44khz and this cannot work above about 15k. One point about MP3, most music is supplied on MP3 so the choice isnt great

This is not correct, Nyquist gives a frequency response of 22kHz and even allowing for the fact that the anti aliasing filter will not have a totally steep edge the frequencies available on CD are still well above 20kHz. You cannot hear frequencies above this and for anyone but the young anywhere near this.

Yes vinyl will sound different but that's because it adds lots of distortions (harmonics) of it's own, this can sound pleasurable but it's not as accurate. These distortions incidentally (the ones you can hear) are at much lower frequencies than you are quoting.

And yes MP3 does produce poor sound but that's not because it's digital but because it's highly compressed, if you compress analogue it sounds awful.

[Scrolllock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r_mitchell85

Personally, I will always have a hifi in my home. Ive only recently brought a new separates system and I regularly use the cd player, turntable, cassette deck and fm tuner.

I CAN plug in my ipod, but I hardly ever use it, because I think the sound quality is much better when you're listening to a CD or LP.

But I guess to the average man on the street... they don't give a shit if their music is on mp3 or cd or whatever, it all sounds the same to them.

You can convert your CDs to wav files and use them with your iPod. They will sound exactly like the CD. You don't have to use mp3 on a media player. But if you did, simply convert them at a very high bit rate and it will be almost impossible to tell the difference.

[vanzandtfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

This is not correct, Nyquist gives a frequency response of 22kHz and even allowing for the fact that the anti aliasing filter will not have a totally steep edge the frequencies available on CD are still well above 20kHz. You cannot hear frequencies above this and for anyone but the young anywhere near this.

Yes vinyl will sound different but that's because it adds lots of distortions (harmonics) of it's own, this can sound pleasurable but it's not as accurate. These distortions incidentally (the ones you can hear) are at much lower frequencies than you are quoting.

And yes MP3 does produce poor sound but that's not because it's digital but because it's highly compressed, if you compress analogue it sounds awful.

I completely agree with this post. CD quality is perfectly sufficient for an accurate reproduction. Yes, vinyl can often sound better, but that's down to what it adds not what it reproduces, the same with tubes which have terrible distortion measurements, but often sound better than sold-state. A good sound does not equate to an accurate sound, often a truly accurate hifi will make certain recordings sound awful.

I'd also add that the ingredient that many are missing is mastering. Many modern CDs are horrifically mastered, something that can't be replicated on Vinyl because of the restrictions of the format. Hence, play both on a decent hifi and vinyl will sound better, but that's got nothing to do with vinyl being the better format. Likewise the hidef formats are often mastered differently to CD. I was convinced of the superiority of 24/96 until I took the time to downsample to 16/44.1 some of the hidef recordings that I thought sounded better than the 16/44.1 equivalents. Surprise surprise, they still sounded as good.

Currently I'm listening to FLAC on a modified Sonos ZP90 and a pair of ADM9.1s, and it's sounds pretty "hifi" to my ears.

[floopy123]

The CD versus MP3 argument is as lame as the upscaled DVD verus Blu-ray argument. Most people can't tell the difference nor care. 99 percent of people won't be able to tell the difference between a 320kbps MP3 and the original CD track and people saying they do are mostly likely lying or have bad hearing!

It's the same bogus argument as saying "vinyl is better than CD." Of course not. This is the nonsense. I've never heard a CD track develop crackle! Any additional dirt on a vinyl record impairs the sound, not enhances it. It doesn't matter if someone can prove the vinyl recording is better than a digital one, as soon as dust lands on a record and you can hear it as crackle, it's inferior to the CD digital version. No-one has ever managed to eradicate dust, humans shed skin, this is dust too - and dust impairs vinyl sound. Dust on the stylus will degrade sound quality too. With respect, people really need to accept this and not live in the past.

Quote:

I completely agree with this post. CD quality is perfectly sufficient for an accurate reproduction. Yes, vinyl can often sound better

Yeah, it's so much better. Just get out those old records and hear all that crackle. Wow, amazing, isn't it! Poor old CDs, I bet they wished they had that crackle too. They must be jealous!

[Andy Carlton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by floopy123

The CD versus MP3 argment is as lame as the upscaled DVD verus Blu-ray argument. Most people can't tell the difference nor care. 99 percent of people won't be able to tell the difference between a 320kbps MP3 and the original CD track and people saying they do are mostly likely lying or have bad hearing!

It's the same bogus argument as saying "vinyl is better than CD." Of course not. I've never heard a CD track develop crackle! Any additional dirt on a vinyl record impairs the sound, not enhances it. It doesn't matter if someone can prove the vinyl recording is better than a digital one, as soon as dust lands on a record and you can hear it as crackle, it's inferior to the CD digital version. No-one has ever managed to eradicate dust, humans shed skin, this is dust too - and dust impairs vinyl sound. With respect, people really need to accept this and not live in the past.

Hmmm...i see your point, but vinyl junkies will argue that the odd scratch and bit of dust all adds to the nostalgia and reproduction of the record.

Vinyl has much wider dynamics than CD with a warmer sound reproduction.

There are a few people that swear by vinyl and totally dislike CD.

[floopy123]

Quote:

"Hmmm...i see your point, but vinyl junkies will argue that the odd scratch and bit of dust all adds to the nostalgia and reproduction of the record."

With due respect, this is 100 pecent nonsense. The original recording of a song does not possess crackle, not unless it's intentional 'recorded crackle' put on the final mix of the track. Any additional noise impairs the sound, it does not add to the reproduction of the record.

[Pemblechook]

I am confused with all this.

I thought hi-fi meant high fidelity mean that the recording and/or transmission chain reproduced the sound as near as possible to original or actually being in the concert hall.

But many folks seem to be saying that imperfections, noise and even distortion actually improve the sound???

I gather that a vinyl record played a few times loses the higher frequencies. That is what people prefer maybe.

My wife winds off the base and trebble and says it sounds richer and more 'mellow'.

It is ALL in the mind.

[mcel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maltaron

these are acceptable but still lack the harmonics. This will allways be the case as digital audio is normally sampled at 44khz and this cannot work above about 15k.

'Lack the harmonics' As a retired AV person, I assume the poster realises that once he was past his early 20s, his ears were unable to detect frequencies over 15KHz. So the harmonics were inaudible to him. In fact if he's past retirement age, he probably can't hear anything over about 6KHz.

Hifi, once Dolby and its successors were developed, always was a means of conning the gullible. Like expensive HDMI leads really...