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Rachel cannot win |
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#76 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 90,771
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Quote:
Ignazio & beanbean, there's no point in arguing with them. Some people will never accept that women saying they don't warm to another woman is not about their looks. God forbid it could possibly be that it's their personality (or lack thereof) that puts people off!
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Me too, there's no doubt that there's misogynistic women out there but I find just as sexist and offensive to assume that women aren't complex enough people to have actual opinions rather than just seeing red at any pretty women that walks by.
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#77 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 902
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Quote:
WHo says it's not complex?
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#78 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,663
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I like Rachel & Vincent and think they have really worked hard to win over the judges despite a whole load of "didn't deserve tens" posts.
More than anyone they have really took on the comments and worked on them which I admire. I don't think it is just a bitchy thing that people don't like Rachel, everyone has their reasons, however a lot of comments have been rather unsupported in regard to her personality or lack of, and very negative and presumptive too. I find her and Vincents partnership funny, entertaining and genuine, and solid despite the bumpy ride. I will say that this year so many off hand comments by the judges have been swooped on, the smug thing, the dead eyes thing, that have been adopted by lots of folks as fact not opinion. I hope she gets to the final, Vincents routines have been really great as always and I think she is definitely one of the best remaining contestants.
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#79 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
I don't think it's to do with attractiveness but judging by whom wins BB women I think on the whole vote for someone they could see as being their mate or someone they could imagine themselves going out on the town with i.e sort of one of the girls. Alesha and Jill fitted that mould and I think Christine and Jodie do too, Gaby perceived as over-ambitious didn't nor I imagine Denise fit it either - I don't think other women relate to sporty type women well. Kelly possibly came across as the sort who'd compete with you for the blokes and win and Rachel possibly comes across as a bit too aloof.
Perfect summary. .... vote for someone they could see as being their mate or someone they could imagine themselves going out on the town with. It's the perfect test to apply to any reality TV contestant, male or female. People who fail that test, fail to get public support. |
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#80 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,943
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Quote:
The negativity towards Christine started after her Quickstep when she got upset at the judges comments, some people really blew her reaction out of proportion and decided she felt she was above criticism, even though plenty of other people have had the same reaction to the judges comments.
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#81 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 902
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I agree about Christine but I still think her reaction was really blown out of proportion, the amount of people calling her a fake bitch on here you'd think she'd morphed into Dom Littlewood an gone on a tirade about how the judges hated her.
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#82 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,783
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Quote:
I agree about Christine but I still think her reaction was really blown out of proportion, the amount of people calling her a fake bitch on here you'd think she'd morphed into Dom Littlewood an gone on a tirade about how the judges hated her.
Clearly not representative of your general viewer though, or she wouldn't have survived so many bottom 3rd positions on the leaderboard. |
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#83 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 2,166
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I dont think these people who accuse those who dislike Rachel of 'jealousy' realise that its actually a form of mysoginy. Im assuming these are male posters? I can't see women coming out with such piffle to be honest.
Accusing women of disliking another woman because of perceived jealousy is mysoginistic. I suppose we could say these men are all shallow because they only like Rachel because they fancy her and had pics of her on their bedroom walls when they were 12? |
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#84 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,943
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Quote:
I agree about Christine but I still think her reaction was really blown out of proportion, the amount of people calling her a fake bitch on here you'd think she'd morphed into Dom Littlewood an gone on a tirade about how the judges hated her.
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#85 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,189
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I've not been able to warm to Rachel as I have with the other female contestants this year, and I don't know why that is.
I'm hoping she doesn't get to the final because I don't get excited by her dancing. |
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#86 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Under the sparkly pink tree.
Posts: 695
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Quote:
Not really - I just felt that it was an indication that Christine wasn't as without ego as her and some of her fans would have you believe. Other comments like her referring to the competition as a marathon not a sprint and her creeping up the leaderboard have led me to believe she's not as non-competitive as some people think she is. I'm not the only person who thinks like this and it annoys me that some people leap down your throat if you dare to criticize her but think nothing of saying very negative things about Tom, Austin, Rachel and/or Lisa.
I just think there are different levels of competitiveness, some more attractive than others. Gaby reminds me of my sister in a way - she is very good at sport, hideously competitive and hates being beaten by anyone, especially someone she deems not as good as her at whatever activity it is. She was so bad when we were young that my parents banned her from playing board games as her tantrums if she lost were legendary! That type of competitiveness is great on the sports field but not so much on a light entertainment show, hence why I think people were put off Gaby a bit, especially as her partner was as bad if not worse than she was on that front! I liked Denise a lot but I think some people were also put off her for similar reasons. Gary Rhodes also fit the bill here (though he was also crap!) Then there's the competitiveness tinged with desperation, which I have to agree both Lisa (much as I love her) and Rachel have exhibited a bit of when in the bottom 2. Also a bit off-putting. It's a TV entertainment/dance show, not a matter of life and death and they completely over-reacted to being in the bottom 2. Finally there's being competitive but having fun at the same time, which is the way most contestants on SCD are. Jodie, Austin, Mark, Tom and latterly Christine all definitely fit into this category this year. |
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#87 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,943
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Quote:
I agree that Christine is definitely competitive - surely you have to be to some extent anyway to want to be in showbiz where you essentially spend your career competing for the public's attention in some way or other!
I just think there are different levels of competitiveness, some more attractive than others. Gaby reminds me of my sister in a way - she is very good at sport, hideously competitive and hates being beaten by anyone, especially someone she deems not as good as her at whatever activity it is. She was so bad when we were young that my parents banned her from playing board games as her tantrums if she lost were legendary! That type of competitiveness is great on the sports field but not so much on a light entertainment show, hence why I think people were put off Gaby a bit, especially as her partner was as bad if not worse than she was on that front! I liked Denise a lot but I think some people were also put off her for similar reasons. Gary Rhodes also fit the bill here (though he was also crap!) Then there's the competitiveness tinged with desperation, which I have to agree both Lisa (much as I love her) and Rachel have exhibited a bit of when in the bottom 2. Also a bit off-putting. It's a TV entertainment/dance show, not a matter of life and death and they completely over-reacted to being in the bottom 2. Finally there's being competitive but having fun at the same time, which is the way most contestants on SCD are. Jodie, Tom and latterly Christine all definitely fit into this category. I also disagree about Jodie - I get the impression from what she says that she's competing with herself - she doesn't expect to win or to get better scores than anyone else but just aims to get better and is happy if she does - although she does want to stay in for as long as she can. This is a good type of competitiveness. Tom and Christine are different - Tom talks of 10's and beating Austin - fair enough he is very good - and Christine of saying things that indicate at least to me that she can overtake the competition by stealth almost - which I hope isn't true as hubbie (who unlike me likes her) says she's just not as good as other people. I don't know about Gaby although perhaps she's isn't like your sister. |
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#88 |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,143
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Quote:
She might be the judges' new favourite, she might get top marks, but it seems (from the People's voting figures) that she gets few pubiic votes - so she might be saved a few times by the judges in coming dance-offs and get to the final and get top marks from the judges, and get heavy hints from the judges to the public that she should be the winner, but the public just won't vote for her enough (no matter how good she really is) for her to win.
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#89 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 90,771
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Quote:
There seem to be so many exceptions to the rule.
You can be attractive but not tall, attractive but not white and attractive but not smiley. Wasn't Penny tall, white and smiley? And she was well-liked. Ditto Jodie. It's all sounding a bit make-it-up-as-you-go-along to me. Quote:
There's a lot of sweeping generalisations on these forums about female jelousy, a lot of people just can't accept that a woman could dislike another women without the root of it being jealously, is that not reducing women to a stereotype?
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Accusing women of disliking another woman because of perceived jealousy is mysoginistic. ... |
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#90 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 90,771
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Quote:
I've not been able to warm to Rachel as I have with the other female contestants this year, and I don't know why that is.
... I felt about Emma much the way that you feel about Rachel, and I could give the sorts of reasons people give. It did seem to me that she was lacking in personality, that her dances were missing something, and so on. But then, why did she seem that way to me? Who knows? |
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#91 |
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Posts: n/a
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Do you know much of the history of trying to account for human behaviour using rules? Of course if you imagine that there is a simple and rigid rule there will be numerous exceptions!
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#92 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 180
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Quote:
I dont think these people who accuse those who dislike Rachel of 'jealousy' realise that its actually a form of mysoginy. Im assuming these are male posters? I can't see women coming out with such piffle to be honest.
Accusing women of disliking another woman because of perceived jealousy is mysoginistic. I suppose we could say these men are all shallow because they only like Rachel because they fancy her and had pics of her on their bedroom walls when they were 12? It's much more complex than that. Judging by threads on this forum and the BBC message board, a lot of women fantasize about male dancers (right now the choice is Tom or Austin). They wish them success and want to see more of their favourites. And when the male dancers are in danger of elimination and the threat comes from a successful female contender, the fans often turn against the source of threat - who is usually a younger good-looking and talented woman. |
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#93 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 180
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I'm a psychologist by trade, so I know plenty about human behaviour thank you very much.
I remember your thoughtful comments from last year. |
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#94 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,714
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Quote:
You're missing the point. The idea is not that anyone consciously dislikes women because of their looks. And of course the dislikers think it's because of personality and so on. But it can't be that simple, because (a) they're not mind-readers and their claims about personality require unjustified assumptions about what's going on in women's heads, and (b) because other people see the women has having very different personalities.
You don't have to be a mind reader to work out a few clues about a personality...you can just try listening to what the person says. It isn't, I would suggest, an unjustified assumption to form an opinion that Rachel, placid and polite as she appears, is not the brightest and has nothing original or amusing to say. That's not a reason to hate her, or denigrate her undoubted dancing skills but it's a perfectly valid reason not to warm to her personality, which has nothing to do with her looks. Equally, if you don't value intelligence or wit as a quality in men or women, then obviously her lovely looks may weigh more heavily with you. But don't accuse others of lack of insight into their motivations!
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#95 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 53
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I so hope your right that she wont win, as i am getting teed off at her getting high marks for do nothing special and those like Austin who work the floor get piffle.
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#96 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 280
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For God's sake give the girl a break - she just happens to be different from a lot of people, as Brian Fortuna so aptly put it "Rachel has a delicate, gentle personality" - she just happens to be completely different to how we all imagined she would be IMO
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#97 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Down to earth
Posts: 13,673
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Quote:
You're missing the point. The idea is not that anyone consciously dislikes women because of their looks. And of course the dislikers think it's because of personality and so on. But it can't be that simple, because (a) they're not mind-readers and their claims about personality require unjustified assumptions about what's going on in women's heads, and (b) because other people see the women has having very different personalities.
For all those who are getting miffed about being tarred with the same brush, of course there are women who dislike a female contestant for genuine reasons - but it's impossible to tell which is which on here! There's so much un-necessary bitching. Women need to think about why they dislike other women so often - they don't take instant dislikes to male competitors in the same way, nor do they rake over their characters in such obsessive detail. |
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#98 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Down to earth
Posts: 13,673
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Because women are too stupid to understand why they don't like someone? "Poor little things ...they don't even know their own thought processes."
You don't have to be a mind reader to work out a few clues about a personality...you can just try listening to what the person says. It isn't, I would suggest, an unjustified assumption to form an opinion that Rachel, placid and polite as she appears, is not the brightest and has nothing original or amusing to say. That's not a reason to hate her, or denigrate her undoubted dancing skills but it's a perfectly valid reason not to warm to her personality, which has nothing to do with her looks. Equally, if you don't value intelligence or wit as a quality in men or women, then obviously her lovely looks may weigh more heavily with you. But don't accuse others of lack of insight into their motivations! ![]() |
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#99 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,259
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Oh for goodness sake, we all like what and who we like for different reasons.
I happen to like Rachel, and Jodie and Alesha last year come to that. I like Heather too. My very favourite this year, apart from Phil who was knocked out first, has been John. I also like Tom and Austin. What eclectic taste eh? Very difficult to unpack any jealousy issues from my like list. But I could not warm to Cherie, and again anyone who did not like her was accused of jealousy. They human psyche is complicated and varied. It is a simple case of we like who we like and thats an end on it, or something like that. Trying to assign jealousy and tying yourself in knots doing it, does no one, especially not Rachel, any favours at all. All reality production teams attempt to put together a cast of characters who will appeal in some way to their target audience. But they will not all appeal to everyone. Hence we have 16 very different people and not 16 clones. I get sick to death every year during BB of being accused of jealousy because there are certain housemates I do not like. It is a cheap shot there and a very cheap shot in Rachel's case. I think it is a great shame that Rachel is not more popular with the voters. But it would never enter my head to accuse those people of jealousy. It is their personal taste and choice. Jodie and Lisa have both been among the 'elite' if you like of beautiful people. Rachel is more the girl next door, very pretty but not beautiful. So accusing those who cannot warm to her of jealousy is, well, trite. It is as bad as accusing those who did not like Heather and Don of racism, an easy cheap shot. Or accusing those who do not like John of not being intelligent enough to 'get him'. Or accusing those who didn't like Phil of being elitist and snobby. I have yet to read, not saying it doesn't happen, men accused of jealousy because they do not like Tom or Austin. I wonder why? |
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#100 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,400
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I've changed my opinion it seems from week to week and Rachel was not on my radar until a couple of weeks ago. I'm interested in what she looks like or how many GCSEs she has or where her hext speaking tour will be (or not if she does not have any GCSEs
). If Rachel continues dancing as she is now then I will vote for her and I hope she wins. Of course she could do a Cherie?
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