But to be fair, you don't like anything about Austin anyway. I'm not a dancer, so I can't comment on the technicalities. However, I enjoyed their Paso (and although I'm an Austin supporter, I have been known to say when I wasn't taken by one of his dances).

I've come to the conclusion that Austin could dance the most perfect routine that is feted the world over and there'd still be people here who dislike him.

But hey, for the majority of that audience on that show last night and for many of us on this site, that was one of the most amazing performances we've ever seen. He got a spontaneous standing ovation!

Nothing and nobody is going to wipe the smile off my face today and that's what dancing should be about, it should move you and touch your soul and Austin did that for me and I'll always remember last night whenever I watch SCD from now on.

If other people didn't get the same joy from that dance, I feel sorry for them, because they missed out on one of the most special feelings I've ever had watching a tv series. He finished and I burst into tears and couldn't stop laughing all at the same time! You still can't get the smile off my face!

I don't care if it was hard enough, had the right steps, had the required elements, a celeb stood there on his own with no music and no partner in a spotlight and danced with precision, passion and a sense of joy, if I could bottle the feelings that inspired in me, I'd be a very rich woman!

Although I didn't cry , I thought it was the wow moment of this series and I really enjoyed it (as much as Ramps' Argentine Tango). Very dramatic and a bloody brilliant dance. What buggs me is all the negativity on here about it. I personally didn't think that Tom's Waltz deserved a 10 yesterday (Len clearly had some weird marking issues yesterday), however I still enjoyed the waltsh and considering that Craig was rather harsh on it, I didn't mind the "overmarking" at all. Why do people have to attack a couple just because they see them as a thread to their own favourite couple? They all danced pretty well last night, and although Austin's Paso was my dance of the night, I understand that some people liked other dances more.

I think what's getting to some people (myself included) is that the inference is now that this was the greatest paso in SCD history, but that there was in fact very little of the true paso in it. I think people's thoughts are, "well, surely any of the couples could do a dramatic showdance with only a flavour of what the dance is about and get high marks." It's a similar argument as to (and I hate to dredge this old chestnut up) why John should have remained if you do a cha cha, that isn't really a cha cha.

Actually at first I thought I was in for something extra special with that paso opening, but for me, behind the veneer of testosterone-fuelled aggression, there was something missing.

And that, my friends, were paso steps.

I have no idea whether it was the best Paso ever, and I normally stay clear of such things. We all like dances for different reasons, because we like the partnership, or the dance is technically very good, or entertaining etc. Who knows maybe if Tom had done the same dance, I wouldn't have liked it as much (although I doubt that). I have said it before, Strictly is not just about dancing, it's about performance, it's camp, it's entertainment. By the way, I was one of the people who claimed that John should be allowed to stay in even if it meant my favourite couple had to go.

However, comparing Austin's Paso to Johns' dances with regards to the dancing does strike me as downright strange.

I keep hearing this lack of paso steps. I'm the first to admit I know absolutely nothing about dance, you could slap me around the face with a heel lead and I wouldn't recognise it, so forgive my ignorance, but what paso steps was it missing?

I was going to type that I knew the comparison was an odd one! I got a bit lazy

I think my train of thought in making the comparison is that however entertaining John's cha cha was, he could never have gotten above like a 6 for it, because there just wasn't enough cha cha in it to warrant that kind of reward. Or even, some might say, to warrant it as a cha cha at all! Now, I'm definitely not saying Austin is like John! He is evidently leagues and fathoms and oceans and universes above him. But the same judging principle surely has to apply. In judging a paso, there has to be sufficient paso to warrant the highest marks. His performance might (and actually was) brilliant, but for me it's not really worthy of breaking into the 10s area of marking, if you're not doing enough paso. And so it goes back to the same sort of argument, which is why try to a dance technically very well if sheer performance will just see you through? Why doesn't Christine, in Len's rather terrible words, not just fling her knickers out? Now I'm not saying Austin was one big gimmick in the paso, but - for fear of repeating myself - he didn't do enough advanced paso for it to be worthy of the marks.

In a way, I don't mind too much that the public get blown away and vote like mad, and praise it to the heavens. My problem is that there is usually a check on this by having the judges and their more dance-focused, technicality-focused marking. Obviously performance comes into it too but I was shocked and dismayed that the judges allowed the performance alone to supercede the dancing.

It was particularly shocking considering I usually try to defend the judges!

So according to your link, being a non-dancer myself, I can see Austin attempting:

* Appel (Bronze level)
* Twist Turn (Silver level)
* Spanish line (Gold level)
* Flemenco taps (Gold level)

Austin is not even a pro dancer. So to attempt anything in the Silver and Gold level should be applauded, surely?

What's the Paso jump he did in the beginning called? I know that was also an 'authentic' Paso move.

Ok if I get you right, you would have been happier if he had received say four 9's or 8's, because that would have been more consistent with what went on with people like John or other couples that have presented less actual dance content. That's fair enough. On a similar line, you should agree then that Len shouldn not have given Tom a 10 for producing a dance with mistakes, because that is unfair to the other couples (I stated previously that I didn't mind his 10 at all, but I'm trying to establish what people think about the judging - and whether the rules of judging should just apply to one couple or all).

Additionally, being dance technically stupid, what was missing from the Paso (e.g. a lot of people just repeat what Len was saying, but don't actually say what was missing)? To me it looked similar to other pasos I have seen on the programme.

Define 'enough' for me please. Bear in mind that people got away with tens with less performance/content than that.

Thank you hun, I knew you'd answer my question!

By the same token, you could argue that the judges have chucked 10's around like confetti this year, awarding them to dances with about as much personality as a dead herring (I'm not naming names - I've no particular wish to get into a fight). Were those same dances executed with such technical perfection as to deserve a 10? Even the boorish Len Goodman has admitted that this is not necessarily the case.

Austin critics - and it doesn't really sound as if you are one, by the way - can't have their cake and eat it. Austin produced a paso which brought the audience to their feet - a gut reaction which I suspect was replicated in quite a few living rooms nationwide!

That was my point entirely above! People are lazily trotting out the lack of paso content theory with no evidence to support it. Just because Len says it, doesn't make it true. He can't stand all the cape work but it's a valid part of the paso doble I thought?

I think it's a shame to view dance purely in terms of what you all do in Ballroom.

Virtually every dance in ballroom came from another country and was tortured into the technique that ballroom people are so proud of. Ballroom technique (particularly the English style) is over exaggerated, frequently very camp, and a very unnatural way of dancing. It often bears no resemblance whatever to the original dance itself. Rumba is a classic example, as is ballroom tango.

Look at an original mambo or rumba to see what I mean.

My point is that to judge 'dance' and the enjoyment of it by strictly English ballroom rules, is to miss the point of it entirely! I'd rather see the spirit of the dance quite frankly.
Last edited by sofakat : 30-11-2008 at 15:48

According to the link from the OP, cape work is the Bronze level step called Huit.

Still silence in all languages from those 'experts' who claimed Austin didn't do an authentic Paso from my post about what Austin ACTUALLY did (and did well) in his routine!

I thought it was like these ones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf7Fdq1oQaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrbnh...eature=related

Dramatic with little steps but effective.

Exactly. 9s I think would have been fine. In a way, even a 10 from someone like Bruno (who is mostly looking at performance it seems).

I must say exactly it's quite hard saying exactly what someone didn't do. I will start by saying that his Flamenco steps weren't particularly strong. I think Mark Ramprakash did some if I remember that were far better. I've rewatched Austin's a few times now to see. Also without the music (which is sometimes a great way to judge without distraction as long as you can keep the beat in your head going). I don't think I spot banderillas for instance, and I'm not sure there was a Grand Circle either for instance. I would have to rewatch again; it's not as though I have a checklist! And paso is probably the dance I am least familiar with to be honest, simply because my teacher and I rarely do it. His twist turns however were very strong. In a way I'm disappointed when I rewatch it, because I think had there been more paso content, he could have done it brilliantly.

My problem with Austin's though is firstly actually, some of his arms placements I thought were dodgy. Not terrible, but not 10 worthy. Secondly, and perhaps more essentially, the flavour of the paso comes from a lot of mirroring and the cape action of the girl. I don't think there was enough of the latter. It should actually be danced a lot more together than it was, which is why it comes across as Austin posturing a lot rather than dancing with his partner. Equally the mirroring work wasn't there enough for me either. This is why Jill's and Louisa's pasos for instance are in dance terms much stronger. If you look at the above posted videos too feted for their dramatic performance, you will see there is much more interaction, mirroring and cape action.

I hope I've covered everything as there are so many posts!
Last edited by mr.bojangles : 30-11-2008 at 16:15

Paso as a dance didnt exisit, whereas the samba and rumba did and was danced already before Piere laid down a technique for them so no would not call them French. As the Paso Doble is taken from the French Paso Redoble and all the steps in it are in French then I class it as a French dance

I knew I'd forget something. Yes I agree. Tom shouldn't have got a 10. Particularly if there are clearly mistakes being made. There should be judging principles guiding them which apply to all couples equally.

It's very sad actually; I'm a lawyer so I end up applying jurisprudential principles and philosophy to Strictly Come Dancing when I'm watching. I need a life.

the point of the dance is the woman is the cape - Cape has only ever been used in demonstrations or showdance and the lack of paso in that dance is not a theory it just was not there

You're right there hun!

I think it might be the reason why you missed what we're all seeing. You're trying to logically assess the dance, that dance just made the rest of us feel. He almost made me feel like I was the one dancing it, he made me feel joyful and isn't that what dancing should be about, rather than looking for a checklist of steps that should or should not be there?

I think in the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I thought that if there was ever a dance that deserved 4 10s purely on the way it made me feel, that was it.

So you keep saying but you still haven't told me what wasn't there! Mr Bojangles at least, gave me some idea of what he meant.

And I thought the woman could be the cape or the bull. Or is it the man could be the bull or the bullfighter. See, told you I knew nothing!

Well, you'd never see a cape at a dance competition so it isn't really a valid part of the paso. The woman should be the cape. It's just sort of associated because of the nature and history and style of the PD. I might associate canes with an American Smooth routine, but I wouldn't want to see people relying on props (DWTS style).

I can sort of forgive it on SCD though, especially where the celeb is quite weak in dancing but can at least do cape-work. Which is why I was very glad not to see Austin doing it, but by the same token I would have liked, as I've said, to have seen that time filled with a few more steps. The first half of the dance is particularly low on steps. And that is really evidence in itself! It's hard to prove an absence other than by the absence itself. There's not really a substantial number of paso steps until halfway through.

Thanks Alli! I'm glad I've explained myself a bit better anyway.

I must say, I was really impressed by the performance. It was exciting and did bring a smile to my face. But still I knew what I'd seen still didn't have enough paso, despite enjoying it. If you know what I mean? So that's why I surprised to see the 10s (esp from Craig really). You know, on other dances, like Rachel's waltz, I had a lump in my throat because I thought it was very beautiful, but I guess a part of that is watching it, seeing that there was a wealth of waltz (trying saying that one!).

Ah, me and my logical ways

Not to flame Gethin or provoke his fans, but he got one of the highest (if not the highest) Paso score last year, so this is the closest I can get to comparing apple-to-apple.

Ironically, all the judges gave Gethin an eight, saved Len who awarded him a ten (!!!).

Gethin used the prop that Len so detested this year and Len said NOTHING about it.

Here's the link: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KMCwMw0APSI

Now, which Paso is better? Why did Len award Gethin ten while the other judges awarded him only eight? Again, ironically, all the other three judges didn't like Gethin's 'techniques'.

Discuss.