I know its my opinion; i can't get emotionally involved with her because there is no emotion on show. Yes thats my opinion and everyone else has theres.

Its not a cop out remark - IMO I have only ever seen her give one emotionally involved dance; the Rumba. For me there is no emotional connectivity.

Len regularly says that he judges on technical ability, yet last night he admitted seeing a stumble by Lisa and then gave her a 10!

Surely a 10 represents perfection , a stumble or a wrong step etc is less than perfect.

Deffo overmark from Len who has of late become somewhat above himself.

I agree with you Mamaboogie. In my opinion, Rachel was undermarked since I think she was clearly the best on the night. In particular I think Len was wrong in giving both Rachel and Lisa the same mark for the AT (I suspect he realised this afterwards, but had started too high with the 10 for Lisa and had nowhere to go.)

(Also maybe this whole debacle would have been avoided if the performances had been more clearly differentiated.)

Have to agree peformance is always less clear cut. With ballroom Tango I hate it when Arlene bangs on about telling a story etc I personally think that is nonsense and the dance should be marked on the technical aspects but with AT I think the performance of the dance is everything far more important than the technical side

I thought the 10 from Len was too high for Brendan and Lisa's Tango last night it was not in the same league as Vincent and Rachel's for routine and techincal content - but which one did I enjoy more ? - Brendan's

Rachel did a mistake too and got 10

That's fair enough (that's where my remark came from rather than an intended pun against you, I respect your opinion). I was referring to Len more than to you. Just as well we can't all connect to the same celebrities. However, based on what you are saying John Sergeant should still be in the competition as a lot of people could connect emotionally with him. Len yesterday was clearly off his trolley, because his marking appreaed to be biased.

[quote=Mamaboogie;29461057]AAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

(Mama finds brick wall to bang head against!)

Do you think Lisa could have danced the AT the way Rachel did - even if she had an experienced partner? No.

Also - there are many SCD dances where I am sure that Brendan is far more experienced than Vincent. Do we hear people cry unfair then? No.

Rhumbatugger - I too feel a bit delicate today - although I don't feel I consumed nearly enough alcohol last night!

I think Rachel's AS was actually my dance of the evening. It was breathtakingly beautiful and I feel sad it didn't get the credit it deserved.
And for those people going on about Rachel's lack of personality and expression - you watch her and Vincent's faces in that dance - lovely! The joy of the dance is written all over them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, yes ,yes yes. You took the words out of my mouth. I'll write a blog about thie AT later.

I am so sick of this 'advantage' argument and totally agree with you above. All of the pros are experts at some dance(s). How come then, their celebrity partners aren't all brilliant at those particular dances? Rachel was fantastic and it is because she is so talented that Vincent could choreograph such a complex routine.

for my five pennies worth I'm sorry to all the Rachel fans but she leaves me cold - it's like watching an automation dance I see no emotion at all in her dances

Afternoon Mama <smooch>

Guess what? I agree with you!

I couldn't fault Lisa's Quickstep but Rachel's American Smooth wasn't inferior by 4 points! She was robbed of a couple of 10's there.

I also believe Rachel's Argentine Tango was in a league of its own - technically outstanding and engaging from a performance perspective - I was enthralled from beginning to end.

I agree - I thought Rachel was fantastic last night and (in my eyes) should have been clear at the top of the leader board - would have solved a lot of problems if she had been !

Tell me about it mate!

I see these sorts of remarks about Rachel's dancing over and over again.

Her technique is excellent - that much is nearly always acknowledged. It has to be because it is much less subjective and can be seen by all.

I would argue that her technique enables her to express emotion in her dances. If the technique of a dancer is poor, this affects the power of the dance - Lisa's poor use of the floor, and her unstraightened legs made the dance look gangly and awkward at times.

I would also say that IMO Rachel is very expressive in her dances - beautifully so. Her tango and rhumba as well as the AT were full of emotion.

Rachel, however, is not of the 'shove it all out there' school of emotional communication. Vincent too, whilst capable of flashy, is a subtle and intense dancer and choreographer (in those dances where this is needed, of course).

Perhaps this is why some people cannot connect with the emotion in their dances. It's not obvious enough.

I prefer R&Vs classy, intense, sinuous, heated style and delivered wonderfully through choreography and technique, their dances are wonderful, spine-tingling experiences. For me, they are the best dancers on the show.

Whole heartily agree with that. I was actually going to a start thread about why Rachel and Vincent fabulous American smooth was so under marked.

I loved that dance and the song choice was fantastic, I played it back so much and I can’t get enough of it.

Also why didn’t R&V Argentine Tango which was best dance of the night get 40 marks?

I feel that whatever happens now, Rachel and Vincent can leave this show with pride that they have done their best and the results is the most incredible routines with such clever choreography.

Vincent has been the best pro this year and should get a lot of credit for the different style he bought to the show this year. The biggest compliment I can give to Rachel is that I genuinely saw no difference between her and a professional dancer with her performance of the Argentine Tango. It’s quite remarkable.

That's so true.

I think almost every competitor is over-marked almost every week! However, I do think the leaderboard is there or thereabouts almost every week too, so it's not that it really matters that much.

Having said that, either I'm blind, or last night's leaderboard *should* have been:

Rachel
Lisa
Tom

Sorry to bring out this old turkey again, but as we are discussing ones advantage over another lets remember Rachel was a member of a group that regularly performed choreographed routines in front of an audience and so should pick up dances quite quickly.

Agree - generally it doesn't matter as long as the order is right.

Yesterday R&V gave the best performances and deserved to be top - the 10 for Lisa's AT was ridiculous - even Brendan, good on him for saying it, thought it was 'generous'.

Bumping this thread - lots of the arguments here still pertinent to the new threads.

Rachel's American Tango proves she's the best. Technically in another league and she pulled it off.

my thoughts exactly mamaboogie

Rhumbatugger - you speak such sense!

I simply cannot think of one single celeb dancer this season who was as FULL of expression as Rachel!

Every arm movement, every leg (was it Arlene talked about her feet caressing the floor?) totally in sync with Vincent, totally working as one. Every dance they do is poetry to me.

I simply, simply DON'T GET IT. I don't get the expressionless/emotionless point of view.

Do you mean you want Tom's Paso face? Is that what performance and expression means to you? Ever heard of subtlety?

And as for the old 'she was in a pop group she had an unfair advantage.' Oh purlease!!! We could go on and on about Lisa's Italia Conti training or Tom's dance experience. What they are all doing now is something totally unlike any past experience. Let it go.

Totally agree Mama - I find the anti-Rachel stuff is all about Vincent's AT advantage, we trounce it, then her previous dancing experience, we trounce it, then the old, old 'Rachel is emotionless' argument and we have a damn good go at that one too.

Then they start another thread and say ALL THE SAME THINGS.

I don't get it either - I'm new to forums is this sort of thing related to those goat eating creatures that live under bridges?

Trip trap trip trap!

I think a lot of people had pre-conceived ideas about Rachel (I did - I never particularly liked her before) and are unwilling to let go of them.

As you said - they can't attack her technically, so they go for the personality and dance past.

Well, as a professional dancer, I am sure that last week was not the first time that he had tried out the dance - I am sure that he would have done some training knowing that it would be coming up in the semi final.