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Old 14-12-2008, 22:32
Digital Sid
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I don't see how the two girls being tied in a judges vote makes Tom's public votes irrelevant? Surely the public votes tally more than judges.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:38
bridgerton
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Leaderboard
Lisa - 75 points = 3 points
Rachel - 75 points = 3 points
Tom - 67 points = 1 point


The above was the judges' leaderboard. The public vote is rated in the same way with the most votes scoring 3 points and so on. Tom would never be able to escape the danceoff even if he scored the most public votes as he'd only have four points. One of the girls would have been in the danceoff with him.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:38
tellytart1
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The judges and public are exactly 50/50. Therefore in all outcomes Tom would be in the dance-off, there was no way for him to be saved.

After Judges:
Lisa: 3
Rachel: 3
Tom: 1

If Tom won the public vote he'd have 4 points.
If either Lisa or Rachel came second, they'd get 2 more points giving them 5, and the 3rd place would get 1 point, placing them in the dance-off with Tom.

If Tom won the public vote, and got his total of 4 points, and it was a dead-heat between Rachel and Lisa, they would tie, but would tie in second place, awarding them both 2 points each, giving them both a total of 5 points, again ensuring Tom would be in the dance-off. (In a tie, the people tied take the highest position in the tie, not the lowest)

Finally, even if Lisa and Rachel tied, and were only awarded 1 point each, all three would have 4 points, and therefore would have been a 3-way dance-off!
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:41
sHAYneWARD
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I've never been able to understand why there is a dance-off at this stage anyway. They should drop the dance-off with 4 or 5 couples left and just eliminate the couple who got least public votes.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:42
monalisa62003
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Finally, even if Lisa and Rachel tied, and were only awarded 1 point each, all three would have 4 points, and therefore would have been a 3-way dance-off!
Maybe this is actually what happened and so they put all 3 through cos really there is no 3 - way dance - off?
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:42
kassieq
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How does the voting work?

Not very well, obviously

Last edited by kassieq : 14-12-2008 at 22:44. Reason: didn't make sense
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:44
bridgerton
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Maybe this is actually what happened and so they put all 3 through cos really there is no 3 - way dance - off?
No. The public votes holds more weight, so the couple with the most public votes would have been safe. The other two would have been in the danceoff.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:44
zooterkin
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Finally, even if Lisa and Rachel tied, and were only awarded 1 point each, all three would have 4 points, and therefore would have been a 3-way dance-off!
No, they'd be tied in 2nd place, so have 2 points each, meaning Tom was last overall with 4 points. It would then not be clear who should be in the dance-off with him, as Lisa and Rachel would have 5 points each.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:44
tellytart1
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Maybe this is actually what happened and so they put all 3 through cos really there is no 3 - way dance - off?
The odds on a phone-vote coming to a dead heat are going to be even higher than your chances of winning the lottery! The producers have access to the exact number of calls placed, so I don't believe there will ever be an instance where two contestants get EXACTLY the same number of votes.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:45
tellytart1
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No, they'd be tied in 2nd place, so have 2 points each, meaning Tom was last overall with 4 points. It would then not be clear who should be in the dance-off with him, as Lisa and Rachel would have 5 points each.
My point was even if the rules were changed so that Rachel and Lisa tieing in the public vote only got 1 point, they'd all have scored 4 points. But if they tied, they'd actually get 2 points each. My final comment about 1 point was an _even if_ scenario, not an actual possibility.
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Old 14-12-2008, 22:57
zooterkin
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My point was even if the rules were changed so that Rachel and Lisa tieing in the public vote only got 1 point, they'd all have scored 4 points. But if they tied, they'd actually get 2 points each. My final comment about 1 point was an _even if_ scenario, not an actual possibility.
Ah, sorry, my mistake, I didn't read your post closely enough.
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Old 14-12-2008, 23:01
phlegmatist
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The odds on a phone-vote coming to a dead heat are going to be even higher than your chances of winning the lottery! The producers have access to the exact number of calls placed, so I don't believe there will ever be an instance where two contestants get EXACTLY the same number of votes.
Admittedly still very long odds on it happening, but they don't actually have to be exactly the same for it to be considered a tie; in televotes there is a margin of a few hundred/thousand (don't know the actual number), where two participants are assumed to be 'the same' (not just on SCD - on all televotes).
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Old 14-12-2008, 23:54
Digital Sid
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The judges and public are exactly 50/50. Therefore in all outcomes Tom would be in the dance-off, there was no way for him to be saved.

After Judges:
Lisa: 3
Rachel: 3
Tom: 1

If Tom won the public vote he'd have 4 points.
If either Lisa or Rachel came second, they'd get 2 more points giving them 5, and the 3rd place would get 1 point, placing them in the dance-off with Tom.

If Tom won the public vote, and got his total of 4 points, and it was a dead-heat between Rachel and Lisa, they would tie, but would tie in second place, awarding them both 2 points each, giving them both a total of 5 points, again ensuring Tom would be in the dance-off. (In a tie, the people tied take the highest position in the tie, not the lowest)

Finally, even if Lisa and Rachel tied, and were only awarded 1 point each, all three would have 4 points, and therefore would have been a 3-way dance-off!
Now I'm confused even more. How does tom winning the public vote equal 3 points and lisa and rachel winning equal 2 points?

I thought the judges rated the performance then the number of calls got added to the judges scores so whoever did best with the public went and whoever didn't, stayed?
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Old 14-12-2008, 23:56
midflight
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Sid, do you work for the BBC???
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Old 14-12-2008, 23:59
Digital Sid
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Sid, do you work for the BBC???
Nope lol. The scoring sounds really complicated, won't be voting again since it's not explained properly during the show.
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:02
midflight
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The problem is, the scoring system is too simple, and as such leaves itself wide open to situations like this occurrring.

If they used the American proportional system, none of this would have happened, and the BBC would perhaps look ever so slightly less of a laughing stock than they do these days...
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:03
arddunol
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The public vote counts for MORE than the judges as , in the event of a tie after the two are added together , the one with the higher Public vote would win/ avoid dance off/stay in ...whatever the circumstances

All this has always been on the BBC site for anyone to see .
But this particular situation had never occurred previously

Sid , the couples are ranked by the judges and then by the public . A score is awarded depending on the place on each board and then added together to give a result .

The mathematical permutations are manifold but more easily understood with fewer couples .
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:07
Digital Sid
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The public vote counts for MORE than the judges as , in the event of a tie after the two are added together , the one with the higher Public vote would win/ avoid dance off/stay in ...whatever the circumstances

All this has always been on the BBC site for anyone to see .
But this particular situation had never occurred previously

Sid , the couples are ranked by the judges and then by the public . A score is awarded depending on the place on each board and then added together to give a result .

The mathematical permutations are manifold but more easily understood with fewer couples .
So.. why were Lisa and Rachel ranked 3 rather than 2, if Tom was ranked 1?
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:13
midflight
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The public vote counts for MORE than the judges as...
Yet another ambiguous semi-truth. This is only the case in the event of a tie. There are situations where the judges votes count MORE than the publics... (erm... you DID see last night's show, yes!???)
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:17
Fudd
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Now I'm confused even more. How does tom winning the public vote equal 3 points and lisa and rachel winning equal 2 points?

I thought the judges rated the performance then the number of calls got added to the judges scores so whoever did best with the public went and whoever didn't, stayed?
Not eaxctly.

The judges score and their leaderboard is then converted into points, with bottom getting one point. In this case, with three contestants remaining, top gets three points.

1. 3 judges points
2. 2
3. 1

If there's a tie, the highest judges point is given to each couple, so in this case...

1. 3
=. 3
3. 1

Then the public vote, and their vote is converted into points like the judges scores are. So top of the public vote in this case would get 3 points, and so on.

However, this could mean that top of the public vote still has to face the dance off. It did last week with Austin Healy where there were permetations for him to finish top of the public vote, but still in the dance off. This is because the judges combined and public points are combined. Take last week (this is an example, not fact):

1. Rachel - 4 judges points and 2 public points = 6
2. Tom - 3 judges points and 3 public points = 6
3. Lisa - 2 judges points and 1 public point = 3
4. Austin - 1 judge point and 4 public points = 5

Austin top with public, but in dance off. However, he was not saved by the BBC closing the vote because he still mathematically could be saved by the public vote:

1. Rachel 4+1 = 5
2. Tom 3+3 = 6
3. Lisa 2+2 = 4
4. Austin 1+4 = 5

Austin survives because he has the stronger public vote (which takes precedent in these kinds of situations) - Lisa v Rachel dance off.

What happened last night was however many public votes Tom recieved he could not overtake both Lisa and Rachel in the combined score, and therefore could not avoid the dance off, even with the biggest amount of votes.

Rachel 3+1 = 4
Lisa 3+2 = 5
Tom 1+3 = 4

Rachel v Tom dance off

Rachel 3+2 = 5
Lisa 2+1 = 3
Tom 1+3 = 4

Lisa v Tom dance off

As it was decreed that Tom could not be saved by the public, yet people had been voting for him on an open line. This was close to fraud by the BBC so they decided to make it a three way final.

Hope this helps.
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:17
arddunol
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Midflight notice I said in the event of a tie . You haven't read my post carefully , Yes I saw the show , I have seen , sadly , every show of every series .

Sid as has happened before in this series when 3 couples were ranked top , each has the same score .Last night the top score with the judges was 3 , so Lisa and Rachel get 3 , no one gets 2 and Tom got 1 .

Common practice in all situations to miss out the next placing .

Very clear Fudd .
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:22
midflight
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arddunol> Fair enough, apologies, I thought you were just using the "tie" scenario as one example of the public having the upper hand, when in reality, there are situations when the judges hold all the cards (ie last night).
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:27
Suirad
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So.. why were Lisa and Rachel ranked 3 rather than 2, if Tom was ranked 1?

Hi Sid

Judges voting

Rachel 3 points top of LB

Lisa 3 points joint top of LB

Tom 1 point bottom of LB

Public Voting

The 3 remaining contestants are awarded points

3 points for the person who has the majority of he public vote

2 points for the runner up

1 point for least popular ion the public vote

So you see Sid even if Tom has the majority of the public vote his total from the judges and the public is 4 so guaranteed to be in the dance off ,as the girls tying would have had totals of 4 and 5 respectively.

Ellie
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:29
Muinimula
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The scoring sounds really complicated, won't be voting again since it's not explained properly during the show.
As midflight said, the scoring in the American version is actually more complicated (though arguably more fair) because it uses the proportion of public votes (%) to dictate the scores.

Our system is simply a rank system. Whoever gets the most public votes out of four couples gets 4 points from the public, whoever comes second gets 3 points, third gets 2 points and last gets 1 point. These points are added to the judges' scores (shown on the scoreboard before the phonelines open).

Regardless of the dance-off, this scoring system hasn't changed in 6 series. Tess doesn't do an in-depth explanation every episode because the public vote works in exactly the same way as the judges' leaderboard.
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Old 15-12-2008, 00:32
Paace
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The judges and public are exactly 50/50. Therefore in all outcomes Tom would be in the dance-off, there was no way for him to be saved.

After Judges:
Lisa: 3
Rachel: 3
Tom: 1

If Tom won the public vote he'd have 4 points.
If either Lisa or Rachel came second, they'd get 2 more points giving them 5, and the 3rd place would get 1 point, placing them in the dance-off with Tom.

If Tom won the public vote, and got his total of 4 points, and it was a dead-heat between Rachel and Lisa, they would tie, but would tie in second place, awarding them both 2 points each, giving them both a total of 5 points, again ensuring Tom would be in the dance-off. (In a tie, the people tied take the highest position in the tie, not the lowest)

Finally, even if Lisa and Rachel tied, and were only awarded 1 point each, all three would have 4 points, and therefore would have been a 3-way dance-off!
Where do you get all this? Is it on some BBC site?
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