Is that the case? Who decides the routine then? Are you saying that someone could go out there and skate perfectly in a straight line across the rink and be marked higher than someone who does eight compulsory figures and slips over once?

Yes, of course I'm taking my argument to extremes, but it follows logically from what you are saying. Admittedly I am more accustomed to the sort of marking as done in SCD, and complexity is taken into account then. When dances are executed perfectly, some mention is often made of complexity in the toutine, and this can affect the marks.

I think their are arguments on both sides. Chris certainly couldn't be given a perfect score because of his stumbles, but I don't think Suzanne deserved all 6s either.

To be marked against each other, the routines should be of comparable complexity. I suppose Chris might well have been showing off, in which case that's his own fault, but had he performed it as well as Suzanne performed hers, it would undoubtedly have been worth more. As you cannot have more than 30, then Suzanne's was not worth 30 in my book. Perhaps there should be a bonus 7 mark for anyone who performs an extra complex routine perfectly.

Nicky's fault (again !) for giving Chris 6.0, because then he could not give Suzanne 5.5.

You are being very extreme yes... Torvill and dean decide routines and do everyone to a certain standard so there would never be a question of that.
Oh course there has to be x level of complexicity... but the contestant does not decide that. Their is of course a minimum level of complexity that has to be in a routine for each stage, torvill and dean decide that, put together a routine and then the contestants get marked as to how well they pull off the routines given. The difference with strictly is that the pros themselves put together the routine, so how difficult they are vary hugely and therefore not taking that into account would be crazy, here t&d do al of them. The contestant does not control it, I'd imagine the judges you can award extra for complexity, as they did in sixes case with chris but there varies hugely there seems to be no standard practice at all, but you cant subtract because someone does not do an axel when they have not been asked to, instead does the routine which has been approved as complex enough for that stage of comp by T&D. There is very rarely a big gap in complexicity of the routines between the best, as they're cheorgraphed by the same people, but even if there was if there are mistakes in one it would level it.
I will admit though that despite what ive said the judges, rather annoying seem to constantly change how they mark. Some award for things others dont Chris' routine may have been more complex but you cannot award someone merely for trying, though nicky did so that seems to vary. I'd imagine if chris ha done his perfectly he'd have gotten all sixes, quite easily id imagine, it would have then been interesting to see if suzi would have gotten them. Whether it would have raised the bar is unclear, but id imagine theyd just have given 30 to both of them.
And yes I agree with that, when nicky and karen gave a 6 when he almost fell there was really nothing else they could do...

But 4.5 for Clare was a bit mean. The best things in Suzanne's programme were the spiral and mini death spiral (not seen before from a celeb on DOI as far as I know).

Suzanne did a full death spiral in week two.
I do agree that 4.5 for claire was very harsh, not because of anything to with complexicity or due to anyone saying it was more difficult than suzannes or anything like that, but because i think she performed the routine given to her better than what she was rewarded for, as ive said she made mistakes, a few and she looked a bit nervous, it wasnt perfect and by no means a 6 but id have considered the performance a 5 anyway, again not for the complexcity, but because she did it very well overall i felt.

I thought the voting was pretty dodgy all round, but 30 for Suzanne was absolutely ridiculous, although it might have been less ridiculous if those skaters that were better on the night had of been marked higher too. Clare was the best female skater on the night and I expected her to get higher than what she got, but with Jason loving Suzanne, his pathetic mark wasn't really a surprise. I was expecting more from Suzanne, and whilst she does look like a skater, her routine was boring and lacked what we expect from Suzanne, there was nothing in it that made you go 'wow', or that you thought was fantastic. It was a forgettable performance, and I say that because I can't remember anything about it. Whereas with Clare you're going to remember the headbanger and Zaraah's lift.

I can't remember what Kyran got, but I did think Team Dean were better. Also, Kyran deserves a good mark for the move he did with his partner, it's easy (ish) for the male professional skaters to lift/spin/throw whatever as they've done it plenty of times before but for the celeb to actually pull off moves like that is a lot harder. I was disappointed with Chris for failing to do the axel properly again and even though he was my favourite skater of 2008, he also didn't deserve his 6.0s. He's a fantastic skater but I have never seen chemistry between him and Frankie, it seemed the whole routine was just about him and he may as well have been on the ice alone. With Suzanne and Matt, Zaraah and Fred, Kyran and Melanie etc you see a connection but there's absolutely nothing there when Chris and Frankie are on the ice.

What did she get 30.0 for? Being carried around the ice by her professional partner again?

Finally watched it properly.

My thoughts: Kyran and Clare were undermarked particularly by Jason. Chris was overmarked by Nicky and Karen. Jason then gave Chris a 5 for a scrappy performance although it had great speed. The axel was not a good one and doesn't really belong in an 'ice dancing' performance anyway (but this is more exhibition skating anyway so all sorts of weird things are included) but still if you are going to do it and you don't land it perfectly then it shouldn't get full marks. His drag was poor and didn't match Frankie's at all (compare Duncan and Maria's drag which was lovely). Still it was no doubt a wow perfomance as he went for lots of things but really I thought Kyran's was a much better performance as it came across on TV.

Jason judges purely from a dance perspective so he doesnt' really take account of the difficulty or not of a skating move but just whether it was executed well. Chris's moves were difficult but not well executed and there was a lack of extension and matching to his partner. Those are the things Suzanne does extremely well so he marks her highly for it. No idea why he was so harsh on Clare though.

Thought Zaarah was much improved but still I find she doesn't have the same elegance of line as Suzanne and Clare. Clare had more spectacular and better performed lifts and Suzanne had better lines and footwork. Suzanne's was a better dance performance than Chris's so given the previous marks the judges really had no choice but to give her 6's since it has to be comparative rather than absolute.

On a skating/dance basis my order would probably be Suzanne and Kyran about equal, Clare, Chris, Duncan, Zaarah.

For wow factor then probably Chris and Clare about equal then Suzanne and Kyran, then Duncan and then Zaraah.

If Chris had landed the axel fully rotated on one foot and done a decent drag and been a bit more in synch with his partner I think it could have been a winning performance for the speed and wow factor (although definitly not for partnerwork!). He just didn't quite make it for me.

Still, it's only a bit of fun and as a girl I am pleased the girls won!!!

In a real skating comp (under the 6.0 system) the judges get two marks - one for technical content (basically how complex the routine is) and one for presentation (includes speed over the ice, how well a move is executed etc) whereas in Dancing on Ice they only get one mark which has to cover everything. Obviously they each have their own ideas as to what is most important and judge from their own perspective so the dance judges Jason and Ruthie tend to put more weight on presentation while the skating judges tend to vary a bit as to what they mark on.

Personally I'd like to hear each judges comments on why they have given the marks they have but no doubt that would bore most people so they only go to one or two of the judges each time so we never get to know why some marks seem so out of place. Though sometimes even when they do tell us it doesn't make a lot of sense - like what was Jason on about with poor Clare and her face and then to mark Chris's scrappy performance higher - made no sense.

There are 4 other judges on the panel Just so you know.


I don't remember Zaraah doing a lift.

Really? I didn't know that. And wow, how pathetic, you knew exactly what I meant. I'm not the only person in this thread that has referred to a lift as the celeb's lift, e.g. someone put earlier on 'Suzanne's lifts', so how about you go back and pick them out if you want to be petty?

You misunderstood my statement, so let me rephrase:

I don't remember any lifts in Zaraah's routine, performed by any participant in Zaraah's routine.

I do appreciate the personal attacks in the face of you clearly having nothing better to say, though.

Personal attack? Where was that? Perhaps you should watch it back then, as there was definitely a lift in there. She was lifted by the other participant in her routine (just so there's no confusion for you). If there isn't though, there was in the rehearsal as she couldn't land it properly or something.

I always love your reviews of the performances ice dragon. I remember them from last year and they were always fair and spot on.

I agree with everything you have said and you put it far better then I ever could. Hehe

i have to say, i enjoyed Suzanne's more than i ever did in the series. I will never say that she can't execute a perfect routine but that she can't perform. I found in prop week last series, nicky did say to Suzanne "You looked like a theatrical star" and whilst i admit she did, i find that not good other than good.
I often see those performances as cold. I can never be drawn into those performances.

Sometimes imperfections make perfection and for other people to be able to be drawn into the performance.

I think sometimes Suzanne is too perfect and therefore her performance come off very cold. I often prefer the celebrities to the professionals in these kinda shows simply because of the imperfections. The professionals are often too good with all the lines etc. that they feel you leaving cold.

Torvill and Dean don't do that because as much as they are perfect, they are imperfect. They're imperfect at the right points or maybe because they are more relaxed and therefore the lines are more natural rather than say Suzanne's stiff lines which may look good but can't actually draw you into a performance.

» I thought Suzanne was perfect and totally deserved her marks.

» Chris F nearly fell over in one of the lunges and had to put his hand on the ice to steady himself, he didn't land the axle, his and Frankie's timing was off in places and the big lifts didn't go well as Frankie didn't feel confident enough to let go of Chris. I also never get a sense of partnership from them. Imo, he didn't deserve the marks the high he got.

» Kyran also stumbled and nearly fell, he was slow over the ice and there was no sparkle in the routine. His facial expressions also seem to vary between non-existent and just plain weird. Again, I thought his marks should have been lower.

» Clare had a very packed routine and performed it very well, although it has to be said that in some places the transitions were a bit rough and her concentration showed on her face a bit too much. Still, I thought she should have got higher marks than she was given. I thought Clare and Kyran's marks should have been the other way round.

» Duncan and Zaraah are probably the weakest of the skaters who were in the Special. Neither of their routines was spectacular but both routines were sweet and charming and performed and skated very well. I thought it was a shame that Kyran and Chris F were both marked so much higher than Duncan and Zaraah for routines which might have been more difficult but which were flawed in their execution.




I think the reason why we only hear two judges' comments after each skate, rather than every judge as with SCD, is that ITV has less time than the BBC because of ad breaks.

I used to complain about that as well and say there should be less judges so we could hear them all comment but after the judges vs public power struggle on the latest series of SCD, I've come to the conclusion DOI's way is probably better. With only 2 out of 5 judges commenting, it doesn't seem like the judges are ganging up on any particular contestant and so, hopefully, DOI won't have a Sergeantgate.

You don't think "how pathetic" is personal? Really?

You said that people won't remember Suzanne's routine but they will remember Zaraah's lift. I said I don't remember any lifts in Zaraah's routine.

Chris Fountain was vile on the night, not standing for Suzanne when all others, even Frankie did - instead he just looked miserable. He is obviously completely full of himself and is over praised.

The judges definitely take the complexity of the routine into account when they score. It's not always clear how they do this, and I wonder if they are always sure themselves, but they do appear to reward the execution of a difficult move.

The problem is that while they try to make the scoring similar to real ice dancing scoring, they've made it much simpler and by not giving the judges so much time to explain their scores, we don't always know what it is for.

A score of 6.0 should be reserved for an absolutely perfect routine, but they have to make allowances for them being celebrities, so there is an artificial 6.0 standard set. Then it's increments of 0.5, and they have to try to work out who will be best and pencil in scores accordingly.

Just because Suzanne's routine didn't have anything that looked really dangerous in it, doesn't mean that the elements weren't extremely difficult, so it's right the judges scored accordingly.

Chris seemed to be the one who was extra keen to put in the big fancy jump and knew it was a risk. If you deliberately put something like that in, then you have to accept it could cost marks if it doesn't work out.

thats a bit harsh but i concur that Chris did act a bit bratty afterwards.
i voted for Chris last series but i did feel he was a bit off the boil the other night.his obsession with beating Suzanne proved his downfall.he ballsed up and handed it to Suzanne on a plate.
i feel Suzanne is overmarked by the judges and that winds Chris up more however his clearly ungracious behavior the other night was a bit embarrassing to witness.

My god though didnt they all look nervous! I think it was the fact that they were now skating for eachtother as well as themselves that shook a few of them.
I think being preoccupied with beating suzanne defo got the better of chris, whereas suzanne just kinda relaxed and went out and did it. Even Kyran and claire looked nervous which i was a bit surprised at.
I still think the sixes on suzannes part were deserved. But the awarding of marks should be a bit more consistant, cos when you make mistakes no matter what you do in your routine you shouldnt get a 6, because 6 means you performed what you where given to do perfectly, with no mistakes, so I think if you award it otherwise it degrades the 6 a bit. You have to give it for a flawless performance though, and thats why suzanne got it.
I do also agree though that it is an entertainment show, so i suppose they have to have leeway and if they did the olympic marking and went to every judge it would be quite a boring and long show.

TBH I don't know why Chris insists on doing the Axel jump in his routine anyway.

If he HAS to include a show off move like that - why not settle for an easier jump like the toe loop or flip?

He wants to show people he CAN do it and if you noticed he did do a smaller jump but everyone was more geared towards the axel because he attempted it last series and didn't pull it off.

Yeah, I don't see why Chris tries to put in the axel and not show off more easier things when he hasn't got it mastered still.

Although I think Suzanne was the best of the night, from the tour I could see that Zaraah and Clare have improved so much but Kyran didn't seem to be as good as he used to be on the series, even though he's touring with ice skaters now, I think the others kind of put him to shame. I remember being quite fancy with the footwork but it all just seemed a bit boring compared to the others. Even Duncan was much smoother than him.

Watched the youtube. Reading the interviews they decided to put different things in Suzanne's and Claire's routines. Claire has the wow lifts and daring do, Suzanne has an awful lot of dancing, turns and skating on one leg. As someone said Suzanne does whats she is given and if she gets the steps all right and her lifts right thats a 6.

Chris and Kyran did what they presumably were given too but made mistakes. Surprisingly the boys also didn't do/allow their female to do the more difficult or exciting lifts that they seemed to do more on the tour which left them moving fast , watching their girl perform and doing some wow factor moves with errors.

Claire was undermarked .Her difficulty and risk levels were higher than her mark and nothing that noticeable went wrong.

There's also something going on with Suzanne's and everyone (but Claire's) risk factor- on tour she didn't do the rskiest version of her routines and she avoided the riskiest this time - perhaps because she can't be expected to do the riskiest stuff often because its too dangerous and because this time no one was fully back in the groove. As the boys didn't do their hardest stuff either and had the errors that still leaves Suzanne ahead.