Well, I tend to ignore the opinions of so called experts or dance teachers. As far as I'm concerned they know jack shit and are as biased in their views as the rest of us.

Quite a few members have posted on these forums arguing this and that, claiming to know a bit about dancing, but when you take a brief look at their posting history it's clear to see which celebs/pros they favour and those they don't. Their jaundiced views are then made pretty obvious.

There are only two posters on these forums whose views on the technical aspects of a dance I do not immediately dismiss. I have found both to be relatively impartial when discussing the merits of a dance (though they may have their own favourites).

The rest, as far as I am concerned, are simply expressing their own subjective opinion.

Her Waltz covered an equally small amount of floor space as the Foxtrot - watch the BBC Fixed camera video. Then compare it to Jodie & Ian's Waltz, and you might see my point.

Simply because you dismiss that as not being a technical flaw and I do, I consider flow and movement in Ballroom dancing to be an integral part, you resort to saying my point is "daft" and "pedantic".

Precisely why I avoided these forums for most of the series, with some people, you just can't have a discussion.

That may describe what happened here - I don't know I didn't read these forums during the first 2 months of series 6 - but I belatedly discovered the BBC Thread, and it was not the case there at all. It was a friendly, interesting, educational thread, discussing the technicalities of dance in a welcoming way.

They knew alot more than "jack shit" and I, for one, appreciated reading it much more than the vast majority of threads on the BBC or DS Forums.

Unfortunately, it usually proves impossible to make any critical comments without people reacting in a dismissive way, so why bother? I wish I hadn't.

But yes, I agree with your point that Dance is an Art form, and not an exact science, so opinion is subjective.

La Rhumba - we ARE having a discussion it's direct sometimes but that's okay for me - don't let the style put you off.

Rachel's waltz did seem 'contained' I remember Craig saying that it was 'stoppy starty' and I remember a very clear and strong defence of Vincent's choreography on ITT by Darren and Lilla who pointed out that it was a very fast waltz compared to T&C's and had to be danced in this way in order to control it.

Did Rachel's other Ballroom dances fail in the way you describe?

Thanks for your post Rhumbatugger.

I haven't commented on Rachel's expression so far in this thread, only her technique, but IMO she did lack facial expression at times, though this improved by the time of the Final, and no, her AT was not as overtly sexy as Lisa's, and I appreciate that style of expression may not suit everyone's taste, but it was appropriate for an AT. Personally, I thought the opening of the Pros Quartet AT demonstration, with F&V and another couple, where Flavia and the other lady were lying on the table with legs entwined lazily was like the start of a porn movie, but it was v.v.hot and I loved it!

I enjoyed many of Rachel's dances, and alot of Vincent's imaginative choreography. I think my fave of their Ballroom was their first AS, the QS version, which I loved everything about it, the music, the choreo, the lifts and energetic style.

By the time of their Waltz (English) and Foxtrot however, I felt as dances, they were much too stilted and had no flow. JMO, and it's nice to talk about it all without people getting ariated, so thanks for the opportunity!

LOL! I see you're still up too! Happy New Year!!

I remember Lilia's comments on their Waltz choreo, that they did the 'one two three' part of the Waltz at a faster speed than traditionally, and I tried to look at that more carefully. But I would have to agree with Craig, it was far too stoppy starty for my tastes too, they seemed to only take a few steps before holding a pose, and then holding another pose immediately after, not enough flow or litling motion for an English Waltz IMO. I enjoyed their VW much better, for which Len slated them unfairly.
I liked the movement and floor coverage in their QS, which was their first Ballroom iirc. Generally, I thought Rachel was criticised unfairly in the early stages, and she looked understandably puzzled. Her shoulders were a bit hunched in their Jive, and her leg action could've been more bouncy with the kicks and flicks, but overall she coped well with all of Vincent's choreography throughout the series. They matched well, and were a lovely couple. I just feel that the couture dresses for her Ballroom, particularly the Waltz and FT, overshadowed their routines, whilst everyone swooned over her frocks and chocolate box minature stature. Vincent created dances accordingly, but they left me wanting more, and thinking, 'is that it?' Then lo and behold 4x10s popped up. I do think the Judges need changing, as there is no consistency to their comments IMO.

Okay La Rhumba - now in the AT the passion of the dance is conveyed through the dance, the girl's expression is supposed to be cool ( watch Flavia and the other pro who did it} It is calm but hot underneath. It is not supposed to be 'raunchy'. The 'action' goes on underneath, in the footwork - like playing footsie under the table whilst talking to your guests. Not really like that - but you get what I mean. It is subtle and intense - the girl 'holds the cards'.

Rachel's expression was good - her eyes never left Vincent's. Please try to read the 'Rachel and Vincent's AT - Legendary?' thread. There is good discussion on there and towards the end a great poster who understands AT gives the real lowdown on the dance.

Yeah, I have seen some AT dances which resemble just shuffling around and are not overtly sexual, the ATs danced in the semi were all 3 more 'showdance ATs' rather than the social/club kind. My bro-in-law is a Salsa teacher from Cuba, and if you see authentic Cuban Salsa dancing, it's quite different to what the pros create and dance on SCD.

Not liking the style of some of their ballroom is a personal thing, but I honestly think that that is a question of taste rather than quality.

I thought the waltz very tender and beautiful in its unflashy restraint and brilliant execution myself, but some prefer a different style.

I don't think for one minute that Vincent couldn't put together a more traditional waltz or foxtrot, but he was trying to put across Rachel's strengths and personality, which I believe to be very sensitive and laudable of him - but each to his own.

Each dance and dancer has strengths and weaknesses. I feel personally that Rachel needed to be understood as herself, a little restrained, beautiful, controlled, and Vincent choreographed beautiful routines to show her personality and her strengths.

Her Tango and AT were full of passion, she moved well round the floor - though not as long-limb ed loosely as others I grant.

I don't think either her or Vincent are always obvious or showy. I salute Vincent for understanding this about her.

I go back to my original point that flow and travel across the floor is a technical requirement of Ballroom dancing. It's not just a personal taste issue, and the other pros on ITT are never going to criticise a fellow pro's choreography, but Judged in a real comp. their Waltz & FT would be deducted points for a clear lack thereof, and of lilt in the Waltz and sway in the FT. These are characteristics of the dances and not simply a matter of personal taste, it's what you look for.


You're obviously a huge fan and can see no fault, but their Tango for me was not a good dance, it never came alive or contained passion, it looked good aesthetically, but once again, her striking red dress created the image, not her dancing or expression. Rachel started off strongly, and ended strongly 3 months later, however Lisa improved far more as a dancer.

They may be deducted points - i don't know - I'm not a dance judge. However, Vincent has been in front of the best so ... you may be right, or wrong.

That Tango was FULL of passion. It may be a matter of opinion, but I can't go along with that at all - It was technically brilliant, it was exquisite in its power and beauty. At the end of the day, whether you feel that is passionate or not depends on views of what passion is, and how that feeling is communicated to you. I can't argue with that.

It will take a bit of time, but R&V's Tango and RT will become very important, I really believe that. I thought they both actually attained the status of art - but we don't have to understand or like it.

Yes, I am a huge fan of Vincent and Rachel, Vincent particularly, but I am not blind and like to discuss other viewpoints.

And this is really what bugs me about the views of armchair experts and two-bit dance teachers from out in the stix. Their views are implicitly presented as being entirely neutral and unbiased.

And yet, they all have their own personal likes and dislikes (you have said the same in subsequent posts) . The nature of the competition is just too subjective for these jaundiced views not to seep into supposedly impartial assessments.

For example, I posted a link to a weekly blog in a Northern newspaper by an 'experienced' Dance Teacher who was clearly a fan of Rachel, evident from a quick scan of his most recent blogs, and at odds with postings on here.

If it was a Hazel Newbury or Donnie Burns posting, I would sit up and take note.

I have, in fact, come across the Dance Teachers Forum on the BBC website. Admittedly, I only read a few pages, but like most long running threads it appeared to me to have descended into the usual back-slapping, self-congratulatory clique, where by and large they all agree with each other. And yes, they also appeared to have their 'favourites'.

Now I'm as biased as hell, but when I do post I will try (in most cases) to argue logically why I've said, (occasionally using somewhat colourful language), what I've said.

Please read my post in context. I said when moving. When they were moving they covered just as much (relatively) as Jodie & Ian. The problem is with the stopping and starting, I agree, and NOT with how much she can actually physically/technically cover. Thus, not a technical limitation, but a choreography problem. They covered plenty of floor in the quickstep and VW as well. Again - choreography, not technical limitation.

As I said, you can criticise her for whatever you want. I just think that particular criticism is "daft"

Something I`ve been wondering about

If they practice their routines in a room with a smaller floor space than in the studios , how do they adjust their routines to cover the whole dancefloor on set?

I agree - terrific posts Sports Fan - lovin' your style

I have to stand up and be counted with rhumbatugger about R&V's Ballroom Tango I thought it was magnificent, it was the complete WOW for me, the coreography (so controlled and different from other tango's we have seen....loved Austin and Erins too by the way) the dress the music. It was the first dance of theirs that made me sit up and take notice and from then on I was a 'fan' and I am hoping that they will dance it on the live tour.

Once I took notice of them I went and looked at some of the dances that came before and I now also 'rate' their first American Smooth and their Jive which I have found I really enjoy watching and I think that Len was a bit harsh about it.

I think Rhumbatugger should get a job as a UN Peace Envoy. Jus' sayin'.

Actually, though, I am finding this thread very interesting, with the varying emphases people put on the different elements and requirements of the dance. Between the posters, there's a wealth of sophisticated analysis, you know.

Those of us who tend not to support one couple over another in any forceful way but just like watching and learning about the dancing and find an interest in the balance between all the different elements of SCD (including the non-dancing ones) are finding it jolly interesting.

If we don't see any robust debate, our knowledge increases much more slowly.

Long live arguing!

I'm with you on that. It's really interesting to see some analysis of the elements of the dances rather than the judges views (which in fairness to them are, I'm sure, much simplified due to time restrictions) paraded out. I started out this series expecting to be 100% behind Rachel and Vincent as he was my favoured pro and I thought they would be an ideal pairing. I ended up slightly at a loss as to why, with some exceptions - the first AS and the AT - they largely left me cold. I do think the point about coverage of the floor is significant, especially when viewing the fixed camera footage. Nothing is more exhilerating than the sweep and flo of ballroom covering the whole floor and theirs was often very restricted. Another technical thing that bugged me about Rachel, who was so accomplished in so many ways, was her limited leg extension, other than when physically supported by Vincent. Just compare her with Jill in the Xmas final. Both petite ladies with correspondingly 'short' legs but Jill achieves beautiful extension.

That occurred to me when Christine was getting told off for the same thing (albeit slightly worse).

Shallow female vote?

This is interesting - the waltz and the FT I can see are 'contained'. Whether this is an acceptable choreographic choice, or style, I don't know, though I had assumed so as Vincent has been a ten dance champion and would know. If it was then it comes down to taste and I quite understand people not particularly liking it.

Are her other ballroom dances more flowing - I think they are, but am inviting comment. I was impressed by the flow, floor coverage and motion of her Foxtrot with Tom in the final, for example, which I think is evidence that she can do it.

I will have another look at her leg extension - please don't compare her technique to Jill's - I missed her series but am deeply impressed with Jill and think she is exceptional (don't think any of the celebs could beat her technique).

I'm sure that Vincent's choices are perfectly acceptable. I stand with those who believe he's the most talented choreographer of the existing pros. What I am trying to answer is why I didn't fall in love with this partnership when I fully expected to at the outset and despite their obvious technical skills. Interestingly their 'style' was far more exuberant and floor coverage better in the first AS (my favourite of their dances) and their early QS. I remember being surprised by the judges criticism at that stage. Then it does all become much more minute and contained, which I guess as a matter of taste, I enjoyed less.
Her leg extension (particularly reverse) often looks very half-hearted to me. It's not a physical problem (when Vincent places her leg for her,as in the Cha, it's fantastic), just technique. If you can't bear to compare with Jill, Cherie's is a good comparison (although, of course, she's a former dancer too!)

Whoops - slip of the mind - VW in the final with Tom!

There was a shift in style - though the judges liked their first AS they still ended up in the dance-off. The judges then really loved their FT and that kept them out of trouble. This may be why Vincent decided to do a 'contained' Waltz as well.

I take your point about the back leg extensions, though I didn't notice this myself. She had a lovely head and back though!

Some dancers don't 'float your boat' though - perfectly understandable. I wasn't really interested in Rachel, though I adore Vincent and wanted her to shine, until the Rhumba. After that I became more and more impressed with her as a dancer.

Judges didn't mark that first AS that highly though and, yes, then they were in the dance-off. From that point on the judges were marking very highly when, frankly, I couldn't see the reason for their sudden enthusiasm. By that I don't mean that they weren't good, just that they weren't suddenly any better. So far as performance went, IMO, Rachel became less and less vivacious as time went on. The cynic in me wonders if the judges kept their marks (and in Len and Arlene's case, their comments) deliberately low key in the early weeks to try and create a 'story' for Vincent and Rachel and then had to pull the stops out when they realised the public vote wasn't going to keep them in.