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Old 29-06-2001, 22:01
TheGantry
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With Bubble out PAul is the only person (as above) in the house and may well have the Craig factor from the first big brother. I believe that although Equality issues have progressed a great deal in recent times in the UK there are still some deeply rooted prejudices amongst members of the general public. I think this will be reflected in the big brother house voting.

Therefore

1) A non-white person cannot win
2) A woman cannot win
3) A gay man cannot win

Therefore Paul will win even if he is nominated every week.

I really hope this is NOT the case but I believe that it will be.
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Old 29-06-2001, 22:12
subx
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I haven't come across a single person who actually likes Paul.

Apathy is the most common reaction to him.

He doesn't stand a chance of winning.
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:08
Dark Legend
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1) A non-white person cannot win
2) A woman cannot win
3) A gay man cannot win
I totally disagree, regardless of the persons sexuality/gender/colour it is the CHARACTER of the person we are looking at, although it may be the most obvious characteristic, it is not the main one (yes even Brian! )

After 9/10 weeks of watching people are not judging by these factors anymore, the people who care enough to spend the money voting know the characters of the respective contestants FAR to well. Only the most diehard Rascist / Sexist / Homophobe could use these shallow criteria to judge.

-DL-
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:30
Harlequin
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Unfortunately, preconceptions and first impressions can influence views far more than the effect of watching people for half an hour a day for a few weeks (or even living with those people constantly, as was discussed by the housemates in relation to Narinder last night). If one is not predisposed to accept people with an open mind, any appreciation of the more positive aspects of their characters is unlikely to override the preexisting negative "gut feelings" that are at the root of most prejudice[*].

H.
[*] Literally: judging before [encountering].
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:41
Gopher
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But Paul IS gay[well,half anyway acvcording to a posting here earlier in the week].And i dont think the gender thing will matter.Sure last year wasnt there only something like a 2% difference in Anna and Craigs scores.And Darren][black] was able to hold out for the last 3.
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:45
Gopher
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I dont think i care which of them win[the men anyway].Well,in saying that i mean i wouldnt vote for any of them but there are some i REALLY dont want to win.They would be
Paul-Boring
Brian-A complete and utter prick
Well,i supposed if i had to choose a winner it would be Dean[among the men anyway].Though he dosent say much more than Paul.
VOTE OUT BRIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE!
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:47
Dark Legend
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OK maybe I just have a rose tinted view of life, I just feel that anyone who finds Brian as funny as I do would have a very hard time disliking him because he fancies men.. Fair enough if the vote was in the first week I would tend to agree with the original post, but after 10 weeks I can't see 'The Majority (tm)' of people voting purely on those criteria. Granted, as I have already stated, some people will never have their minds changed whatever, even if the person saved their life they would hate them for their colour / sexuality or whatever.

I speak from experience, knowing someone who is usually _mildly_ rascist/sexist/homophobic (laddish) whose favorite people in the house are Brian and Dean... I dunno maybe it says something about the other contestants....

Just my pennys worth...

-DL-
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Old 29-06-2001, 23:53
Adrian Mole
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ok let^s see
Amma: Scary but ok
Helen: Welsh and dim but ok
Brian: Camp tinker
Josh: Smug muppet
Dean: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Paul: Boring chunter about Germany all the time
Elizabeth: Who?

So Amma -vs- Helen?
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Old 30-06-2001, 00:10
Gopher
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The girls seem to get on real well with each other so i think in future they will mainly vote for the men.
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Old 30-06-2001, 00:27
Harlequin
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Gopher: Could you indicate where it's been stated that Paul is (half) gay? All I've read is speculation and an unconfirmed report of an early comment. I do agree with you that Dean is the only male left who I'd like to see win.

DL: Perhaps you should wonder if anyone who disliked Brian due to prejudice would find him funny in the first place. As it is, campness disarms many aspects of homophobia by presenting the gay man as a symbolic eunuch (as I've covered in another thread). I think that most males with anti-homosexual feelings would harbour stronger feelings against Josh, as there's less to distinguish his behaviour from their own. What does your friend say about him?

H.
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Old 30-06-2001, 01:42
Dark Legend
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Well he doesn't particularly like Josh, granted, but then neither do I, the point I was trying to make was that I didn't think it would be an issue for that many people that Brian was gay, Dean was black, Betty was female etc.. I feel personality comes into it alot more - I realise that Brian being gay is a large part of his personality, and were he not so funny, perhaps his constant campness would be grating - I just can't see that if they liked the person that their sexuality/gender etc would stop them from wanting them to win.

I think perhaps you are trying to make the point that they may not allow themselves to like that person in the first place BECAUSE of their prejudice, and this I would agree on probably

As it is, campness disarms many aspects of homophobia by presenting the gay man as a symbolic eunuch
heh! that is getting too deep for me! Just a casual observer, being gay yourself I would bow to your superior knowledge / experience on that one

-DL-
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Old 30-06-2001, 02:52
Harlequin
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I think perhaps you are trying to make the point that they may not allow themselves to like that person in the first place BECAUSE of their prejudice, and this I would agree on probably
You may roll your eyes[0] but that is, indeed, what I was getting at.

I don't think that race, colour, gender or sexuality would consciously be great issues (in this context) for most people in this country. I do think that for many people some of these factors will affect how they feel about some of the housemates[1], but other aspects of the personalities they've witnessed will have just as great an impact. Not that those factors can be entirely separated from the other aspects. How many people could stand Brian's immature and selfish egocentricity, for instance, if he was a non-camp straight bloke? His "funnyness" is part of his campness, which is in turn his expression of his sexuality; were he straight, or if he didn't base his persona upon the fact that he isn't, he wouldn't be perceived as funny[2].

I should probably warn you that being consciously homosexual doesn't automatically make one an expert in sexuality, any more than being heterosexual makes one an expert in genetics . My opinions are based as much upon research and deep thought as experience. As a long-term unemployed layabout I have a lot of time on my hands for all three

[COLOR=purple]H.[/COLOR] (who misses Bubble already)

[0] My ex hated me doing that. He said it was a habit I acquired from my father

[1] The gender issue in particular is a complex one, as some people may vote largely on the basis of how physically attractive they find particular housemates. (The other attributes can, of course, also play a part here ).

[2] I've never personally considered him "funny". That type of persona seems engineered to endear women and heterosexual males (although it's also appreciated by many other camp men).
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Old 30-06-2001, 11:43
Lee Cool
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Brian should win, hes funny and interesting, why the hell would anyone want Dean to win, hes so boring!!!!!!!!!!! Paul wont win either IMO.
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Old 30-06-2001, 12:40
Dark Legend
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You may roll your eyes[0] but that is, indeed, what I was getting at.
Hope you don't think I was rolling my eyes at you! I was rolling my eyes at the type of person who would act like this

I don't think that race, colour, gender or sexuality would consciously be great issues (in this context) for most people in this country.
AGREED!


I should probably warn you that being consciously homosexual doesn't automatically make one an expert in sexuality, any more than being heterosexual makes one an expert in genetics .
Well what I was getting at was exactly that, being gay you have had the inclination to think about / research such matters, not that you would be born with this knowledge!

As it is, campness disarms many aspects of homophobia
I get what your saying now, and again would probably tend to agree that a Graham Norton character is so Non-Threatening that the fact the bloke is gay is actually a plus point, which is why in this context I was arguing against the original poster, as Brians gayness is actually serving to bolster his case and not to detract from it; although obviously I don't feel this is a factor for the other housemates, Brian is a special case..

Again, merely my pennys worth added to the sum...

Thanxs

-DL-
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Old 01-07-2001, 15:33
TheGantry
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In the original thread I was trying to describe the wider population as a whole and the innate prejudice thtstill exists within them. For the more liberal/progressive end of society it goes without saying that there is far less prejudice. I beleive alot of people who write on this site are from that liberal branch of society. What I was talking about was 'The Sun' reading mass of people who still have views that are far from liberal. I would like to make the following points in realtion to BB1

1) Despite Anna being far more interesting than Craig she still lost even though all the intelligent/liberal types voted for her.

2) The Sun newspaper supported Craig, and there was no surprise there was there.

3) Annas personality did get her to the last 2 but she couldn't beat Craig who was tediously boring.

Finally, I believe that if Paul does not win then

1) White heterosexual women will win- most likely
2) Black male will win - next likely
3) Homosexual man will win - least likely

I believe the larger the phone votes become the more likely this will be the case.
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Old 09-07-2001, 22:35
TheGantry
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As predicted in this site above before site went offline Paul is invincible, as proven by him surviving yet again.

WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MAN

BEATS

BLACK (SEXUALITY not Clear) WOMAN

IMPLICATION PREJUDICE
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Old 10-07-2001, 08:25
Harlequin
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Oops! Apologies, DL. I seem to have mislaid this thread after my previous post to it .

I wasn't having a go at you for the eye rolling. I was just generally commenting on the use of that smiley .

I research many things that aren't directly connected to my personal attributes. I'm a compulsive knowledge seeker with a mental database crammed with trivia . I agree that interest in my own sexuality led me to initially investigate such areas but I began when I was nine, a year before I labelled myself homosexual (and more than a decade before I realised that the label was artificially confining). Most homosexual people, in my experience, are as ignorant on issues of sexuality as most heterosexuals. For instance, many believe that campness is innate and that buggery is compulsory . The comment wasn't really aimed at you specifically, though, but at any readers who might ask a question of someone about a particular trait they possess then take the answer as gospel. In many cases, the person they ask is likely to have little more clue than themselves. It's rather similar to taking one person's opinion as being representative of an entire group (which is one reason why I dislike the term "community" being applied to disparate individuals who mostly have no contact or communication with each other).

I take it that you now grok why campness reduces the threat of homosexuality. A) one can think that "if he acts so different to me then I obviously can't (be thought to) feel the same as he does", b) it's difficult for a heterosexual male to imagine a camp man shagging anyone (symbolic castration), and c) being a figure of fun re-channels negative feelings from others (which is why many children turn to comedy to combat bullying). I agree that Brian's campness is probably a major factor in his popularity and would further suggest that that has applied as much within the house as without. It's only recently that many of the other housemates have demonstrated some awareness of the egocentric bitch behind it. Incidentally, I've just finished watching Muppets From Space[*] and Miss Piggy's personality instantly reminded me of someone .

TheGantry: I was indeed writing of the "wider population as a whole", as DL quoted. There are many twisted and hateful people in this country, as there are in the world in general, but those with such extreme feelings form a tiny fraction of the general population (although it might not seem like it when one encounters them, or when facing the inconsideration of strangers with less pronounced prejudices). I do think it likely, however, that rags like The Sun would allow bigotry to influence their selection of people to support, and that many of their readers would go along with them. Thankfully, I think that a significant proportion of their readerships are capable of thinking for themselves, and I don't think that any one paper is read by the majority of the population.

Of course, if Paul doesn't win I suppose that your whole theory is blown out of the water. Your list of alternative winners seems to be hedging your bets to infinity. "Look! Brian won! Didn't I tell you he would if no one else did?"

I don't think that the last result implies prejudice. There appears to be something very odd going on with the voting. I've read in another thread about alleged phone call scams but I've been unable to get to the official site to read more about it (the terrible combination of proprietary extensions confuses my browser).

[COLOR=purple]H.[/COLOR]
[*] "I realise that it may be hard for you to accept me as an alien, but I didn't choose to be one. Well, I've always had alien tendencies. This just makes sense to me". That film has some good lines .
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Old 14-07-2001, 20:20
TheGantry
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Dear Harlequin

May I start by saying you sound like a very intelligent person who has good analytical skills and I have enjoyed reading your comments. However I think you have misunderstood me, and I fear it is because I have not expressed my views adequately. I will try to do so now.

I agree with you that the number of 'twisted' and severely prejudiced people in this country is a small minority. However there are still a large number of people who have some prejudice within them which whilst not extreme shows itself from time to time. I believe the larger the phone vote the more this prejudice will be reflected, as it will reflect the bias within society which even if not extreme is very real and apparent in how people act.

I think some prejudice is more deep rooted than others

1) sexism least deep rooted
2) racism next most deep rooted
3) homophobia by far the most deep rooted

People would rather keep Helen in to see how a possible Heterosexual relationship developes than keep a Homosexual in, and look at the size of the vote against Josh. Even if Josh was getting on very well with Brian and possible romance might have happened it would not have kept him in.

I think now that Paul or Helen will win, and I think Paul will win as before, and Helen will come second.

Therefore

WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MAN WINS
WHITE HETEROSEXUAL WOMAN COMES SECOND

All because thats what the wider society wants to see happen because they relate to these people best because of their own bias.
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