Your spot on about the semi final. Personally I thought Jodie's Out Here Own My Own was the performance of the night - I adore it (though again performed better at the Faenol Festival)

I hadn't considered the battle of the teenagers. That's probably true and is terrible that these girls were played off each other like that.I think it was more pronounced in IDA with the girls making up 3 of the 5 remaining contestants.

Also can I thank you Laurie for engaging in these debates with me. You're very knowledgable but never condescening and never take disagreement as offence. I love debating the ins and outs of these shows and you've willingly obliged.

I just don't think that there were that many people who could play any of the roles well - at least on what we saw on the shows. The public just seem to me to have chosen the safest most familiar option and avoided the 2-4 more interesting ones who might have done it as well or better. I think ALW preserves his options to the end in the last two series. A youngster doing well can beat the safer option Lee and he actually wants the novel option in IDA . I also would have thought that Jodie v Jessie singing in the final was a Jessie knockout. The acting issue on IDA is debatable but it was a fair bet that the one who could interpret lyrics better would be able to act better too.

Not at all sure what happens with John Barrowman. He's been the show's spokesman for so many predictions that sounded half sensible at the time but proved untrue. People he said couldn't sing well could, people who he said looked amateur have been among the most professionally successful, ones he said couldn't act seemingly can, ones he said couldn't hold a large theatre audience can. The ones who couldn't perform reliably 8 nights a week did. People he thought could, couldn't. Irish Nancy couldn't work but somehow Welsh Oliver is working, Short and sweet Nancy was too short and sweet but she is covering the role .......Jessie wouldn't be ready in time - but she is and doing a more difficult accent in a more difficult role and singing more often. There's an awful lot of people who appeared on the shows who have done things soon after that show them in an entirely different light and strangely its Barrowman who does more than his fair share making the show's suggestions wrong.

I don't know whats going on there. Its possible he just identifies with people who fit the Barrowman style of acting and singing. Its also possible that he was used to cut some people's support. He may sometimes have been used to support the conclusion the votes were heading for anyway - it would have looked odd if all the judges and CM and ALW were pointing in one direction and the votes were all heaping up behind the most familiar candidate. Perhaps he's the fixer - perhaps he believes everything he says.

You are right he's not the only culprit. ALW ends up with people who don't fit his starting blueprint on all 3 shows and along the way gets rid of credible competition like Daniel and Sarah and Aoife. ALW though at least seems to have some reason most of the time as he is visibly protecting either his winner or potential winners by removing their competition. He seems to have lost it at times (Ashley) used some nonsensical arguments (Sarah was inconsistent) and he uses some pretty dire songs to get rid of some people, but at least you can see some logic most of the time.

I think you've got some other judges criticisms mixed with JB there. JB did think Sarah could be Nancy, it was the other judges who gave her the too sweet tag. Bizarrely the too short tag was given to Niamh by Dame Edna despite the fact she is taller than Sarah, Rachel and Jodie.

The Irish Nancy thing I agree with John but I think that is purely personal taste.

The could hold a theatre audience was said to Daniel Boys by ALW. JB was apparently furious when Daniel was sent home. They have shared a stage many time since then on John's tour and the Faenol Festival and Daniel will be on his tour again this year. John certainly didn't share that view with ALW.

To be fair to the judges they only did what we all did on this forum - judges the girls/boys on the performances on the show. Take any judges criticism I we could both find a dozen posters agreeing with it. Although we tend to be a lot harsher. To a certain extent it's not the judges fault if contestants don't show their full potential or can't engage the public.

Aoife/Daniel/Rachel are probably the most bonkers as they were far better than the person saved. At least when Sarah was sent home it was for Rachel.

I can't think of a semi final where the stronger candidate got through.

Its interesting though that people don't show their potential on the show and even get criticised for being the opposite to what they soon after are. Part of it is that they criticise things that can't be predicted (who can sing consistently?) and part is that they seem to judge on the songs and assume they reveal something more than they do. Some comments are just plain wrong but some people seem to be something different on the show. Some of the more professional people had trouble with the sound which has never been a problem for them since. Some seem to have found their musical theatre skills didn't come over singing pop songs. With others no one seems to have sorted out obvious issues that don't turn up in their next jobs. Its a real mystery how Rachel ends up looking wooden weeek after week but then goes off to get a nomination for her acting, Sam looks like she can't act for toffee but does fine in Cabaret, Tara looks totally inappropriate and goes off to get great reviews as a credible narrator in Joseph. Aoife doesn't suddenly become a different person in the few months between leaving the show and becoming Roxie - who is a vast contrast with how she was presented on the show. Helena, who looked odd acting some weeks on TV ,has successfully tackled a greater range of roles than Connie off it.. Jessie who couldn't act streetgirl Nancy turns up as a perfectly upper class girl in ALNM. You wonder if they just couldn't bring out what was there or somehow they managed to find everyone a few months too early or they didn't find what they didn't want to.

True of series 1 - Helena might have been too interesting for people to buy - though Helena in laid back acting mode might pull it off. In 2 Lee's opposition is Daniel but I would have thought the best of the alternative view of the role got there alongside him in the final. In 3 it would depend how you rated Rachel and I think Jodie and Jessie both in their own way looked better anyway so it didn't matter who was third. The best of the pros (as seen on the show) I thought was Sarah and she's dumped out early like Daniel? Aoife singing The Hills.... up against Connie would have been interesting as would Abi doing any scene with the children - I suspect the haircut would have won it for Connie though.

I think it's a combination of several things. The format of the show is partly to blame, it does favour singers over actors, and favour those who's voice translates from MT to pop quite well.

The classic example of this is Keith Jack. I liked Keith and voted for him a couple of times, he has a lovely voice but in terms of acting Daniel and Ben could kick his ass all over the park. Also he sounds as good doing MT and pop, I couldn't believe the difference in power Daniel has when he sings MT songs.

Song choices are also to blame for differing reason. The first part is just bad choices that tell us nothing about how they will be able to play the part on offer.

The second is people getting bad choices because ALW or the producers want them out, whether it's rubbish pop songs (Daniel, Fran), women getting songs written for men to sing (Sarah, Rachel, Jodie) or men singing songs meant for women (Daniel).

The third point about song choices is the one that hacks me off the most is contestants, especially the younger ones, being sent out to sing songs the blantantly can't sing. It's not even those who they want out when you consider it was done to Niamh and Jessie, does no-one see how they are struggling with these song. I don't believe for one minute Jessie was fine all week with Fighter then had a bad night on the live show, same with Niamh singing Valerie. On ADWD both Ben and Anthony were sent out singing song with notes they blantantly couldn't reach - who sends teenagers out to be embarrassed like that? Say what you like about X-Factor but I've never seen that, I've seen song choices that didn't work but I've never seen contestant let down like that.

I have to say I think if they bring these type of shows back next year I'd like to see the mentors like the X-Factor has just to see if that makes a difference.

It would be interesting to see the learning process as on Fame Academy. I agree things are odd at times - I just can't see why Abi is left with Summertime or someone doesn't stop Jessie's hand gestures (no sign of it on any performance on youtube since) or tone Helena's on the show acting down before the SF . Not sure X factor is much better as I get the impression there that people are singing the songs at about the same stage Fame Academy got to on the first day. It was always day two or three that the innovators innovated or the vocal coaches came up with a long list of notes for the ones who needed them. There they changed songs to fit the singers and drastically rearranged them when necessary - the ALW shows look very much take it or mangle it.

I learnt something else today the Maria series gave little clue of - I went to see Saturday Night (with Helena as Helen/Helene) and discovered that she has great comic timing too..........

Next year is reported to be the Wizard of Oz - imagine its Dorothy and not a Lion or a Wizard they want to find? A very odd pick because Helena has already played Dorothy and got great reviews , I think one of the Nancy's has too and its made for the younger Nancys or Leanne .

Could be interesting as there isn't really a safe familiar option for the public to vote for there - its bound to be time to try someone young?

Rachel was Dorothy just before IDA.

I hate the idea of looking for Dorothy, but then I thought I would hate IDA. I only turned it on because John Barrowman just is that pretty.

I'd rather they had a male part on offer - more pretty boys please!

Would never have thought that either.

Still can't beat Mr Nice Guy on Any Dream Will Do ending up in Avenue Q.

Have you seen Aoife in a nightie doing cartwheels though.......

Is that in The Sound of Music or do have something you wish to share?!!

Chicago....8 cartwheels a week...

Actually JB's done a much better job of predicting success than ALW has - JB's favourites included Helena, Daniel, Ben, Sarah, Rachel, all of whom are doing very well in MT. I thought JB was full of it when he was praising Ben, but then look who wins the Olivier?! I do agree that some of the song choices have been ridiculous, and I'd like to see them do a better job of that - or a less blatant job of giving crap songs to people they want to get rid of. The Canadian version of Maria was just as bad.

Ben didn't win an Olivier award nor was he nominated for one. He did win a Whats on Stage award as a result of an online poll.

And John Barrowman hasn't always been right. He was always very negative about Jessie but she is performing very successfully in the musical 'A Little Night Music' which is transferring into the West End shortly.

ALW took Helena to the final at least in part because he noted how she outsang everyone in the sing offs not sure JB helped much. Didn't notice the support for Sarah. If JB did spot some people he undid the good work by missing some of the most successful people who turned up on the shows too - he missed Aoife and talked Jessie down.

JB supported Sarah before any of the other judges. He was the one who told her to dye her hair so the other judges could see what he was seeing.

I'm not sure he talked Jessie down, she got good comments when she was good, bad comments when she was bad. Also it's a casting show not a talent show he just didn't think she was Nancy - I didn't and still don't. Doesn't mean she's not talented.

Just because someone gets bad comments doesn't mean JB doesn't rate them. I remember him ripping through Daniel Boys on a couple of occasions yet Daniel supported him on his tour and will again this year, they duet on JB's album, and on Radio 2's Friday Night Is Music Night JB's introduction Daniel was 'my great friend, the delightful, the delectable,, the delovely Daniel Boys'.

On another note.... Bringing the discussion back to Oliver!
Anyone going on Wednesday/Thursday this week will get the fabulous Sarah Lark as Nancy!

I wish I was!

I've never seen the whole of Chicago, I've never had a chance to see it live and I can't sit through the film as Renee Zelwegger irritates me.