Like pretty much everyone else, I was impressed by how good Ray was. However, watching last week's show again, I didn't think his ice-dance was all that good. I wouldn't choose to re-watch it, and I found several of the others more interesting.

By now, I've seen a number of posts that say Ray is as good as a pro. That's clearly not true, but it does help highlight just how overrated he has become.

I suspect that viewers were taken by surprise when Ray so greatly out-skated everyone in week 1, and -- because of the contrast with the others -- perceive him as better than he actually is. As the weeks go on, more realistic perceptions may take over.

And many viewers may find that they are more interesting in seeing how some of the others develop as skaters than in seeing how many fancy moves Ray can learn.

I think that without doubt Ray is better than any of the others at this stage; with Jessica the one with the most potential (strange, they are also the 2 with most experience)!!

However, I think it's going a bit far to say Ray is as good as a professional skater. Maybe if he trained to the exclusion of everything else he does, he might possibly get good enough to become a professional show skater, but he's far from that stage yet.

I do think Ray, even at this stage, is the best male celeb skater ever on DOI. He has the whole package.

However I`m in the band of viewers that prefer to see the celebs improve week after week rather than watch someone who was really really good from the very start.

I am really looking forward to seeing how far Ray can actually go. Having someone so good to start with to me means that it will take the show to even higher levels and will certainly push the others imo.

Or maybe the opposite effect?

Overrated? I can't see that at all.

Dont think he's flashy at all and as far as being overated goes then surely the judges and T/D know something of what they are talking about.
I personally am looking forward to just how good Ray can become bearing in mind his already fantastic performances.
If he did'nt try for more fancy moves as you put it then surely he would just be standing still as far as improvement goes and I would have thought you may find it interesting also to see his improvement along with the others if that is why you watch the programme.

Yes, Ray is a very good skater but......... I thought the whole point of the show was for celebrities who have never skated before, learn to do so and compete in an even contest.
Quite clearly Ray has skated before, as has Jessica. How is this a fair contest? How can the likes of Todd, who has clearly never put skates on before, be expected to compete with the likes of Ray & Jessica?
All the celebrities should be of the same standard when they start so at least it's a fair competition!

Oh I very much doubt that Tissy, these are people who do not give up easily or they wouldn't have chosen careers they did.

I suspect that Ray is one of those very very talented people who would shine in no matter what field they were interested in. He has dance training, and already roller bladed, so he had the skills and balance in place, he only has to transfer those skills to the ice. He is also fearless.

If you are going to ban everyone with as much previous ice skating experience as he has, I suspect you wouldn't have any celebrities at all out there. Where do you stop? Exclude anyone who has ever put a pair of skates on for whatever reason? Exclude all dancers? Exclude anyone young and athletic for already being fit? Exclude everyone who seems to have a degree of recklessness for their own safety?

There's not many people left is there, and they wouldn't be worth watching anyway.

I really like Todd and he's making the programme more watchable for me but honestly who would really want to watch 12 Todds dancing on ice,Its not an even contest in absolute terms but Ray has not the experience on ice so there fore I believe him to be equal to the others who have no experience on ice. Its Ray's ability to conquer the ice that makes him stand out along with his youth and enthusiasm so unless we have everyone the same age ,gender and make sure they have never danced skated or acted out performances then it will never be equal in real terms.
Ray or Todd to win.

What the profrssionals are on about is Ray's ability to interpret the music and to effortlessly present it - it less about stunning moves and lifts. He has what Andrew Llyodd Webber would call the "ability to to tell the story", and making a performance believable, which is something Jessica was not really doing, even though she was technically skating well. Ruthie was interviewed earlier this week and she acknowledged that Ray hasn't actually done the most incredible lifts yet, but that is not what the show is about (although is perhaps what the audience are rating good dancing with). She highlights its about DANCING on ice, not skating on ice and that the performance is important.

With Ray's performance last week, it was slow tempo so did not have the feeling of showy pizzazz that his first week had, but will not be to everyones taste. He achieved something much more subtle. It was very emotional, and he provided such emotion you could see it before they started the routine, all the way through, and was even clearly still caught up in the emotional interprestation of it until he had got off the ice. Even Maria, in her blog, said how emotional it all was for her and she stated how incredible unusual it is to find a 20 year old who can do that.

The other thing he does is he makes certain moves look so easy because he makes the whole thing flow, whereas with others you can see the moment arriving before they start a more complicated lift, or step cos' they don't flow into it - they have this look about them that sirens "the difficult bit is coming up" and I've got to focus. He just does it, so if you blink, you have missed it.

Whether Ray has peaked too soon, who knows. Clearly he puts a lot of effort and pride in his work ( as do they all), and he would not want to present a performance that was below par, just so that people could see that he "had a journey" and skated that bit better than before.

Pices-55, imo you make a really valid point that I think a lot of people miss!! the whole lite ents vs compt debate hinges on the celebs taking part all bringing something different to the table. No one wants to watch indentikit performances!

Do you think he is already as good as a professional ice dancer?

Because if not, the opinion that he is (which some have expressed) ought to count as a little bit of overrating, at least.

I think quite a few other comments overrate him as well, but that would be a start.

Thanks Miss_M,I get really frustated when people keep going on about how Ray should not be allowed to take part and how he has an unfair advantage.Personally I view the show as entertainment only and though I do have my favourites It would not be the end of the world if they got knocked out.I would still get up tomorrow.

I'd be interested to know if OP has any first hand experience or knowledge of ice skating?

I doubt it very much because if they did they would know how difficult the stuff he has been doing is. I thought Chris Fountain was impressive, but Ray is better than him and he has no prior training apparently.

There was nothing flashy about Ray's performance last week. He skated very well but the best things about the performance were his musicality and his ability to both feel and show emotion.

No problem Pices-55; the other rather key factor in all this of course, is that the bookers/producers of the show have the power to include/exclude any number of possible celebs. I don't really get why people criticise any celebs in these shows for having experience, afterall, I'm pretty sure the TV companies concerned have access to the celeb's cvs before they book them to do the show lol, so if we are going to criticise any of those taking part, we would do well to make the point to ITV et al rather than the celeb who is, after all just taking a job and trying to raise their profile in the public domain.

I think it's so evident that his routines include flashy moves that I don't know how to argue for it. If it's not clear just from watching him, then *shrugs* maybe we just mean different things by "flashy". I know that's not a very satisfying answer, but it's all I can do at the moment.

Of course the judges (and T&D) know something of what they're talking about, but I don't think anyone is questioning that Ray is good by DOI standards, and it's not uncommon for people to disagree even with the expert judges of shows like DOI. The opinions of such experts are not normally accepted as the final word that should settle any disagreement.

Also, neither the judges nor T&D are experts in what's interesting, or worth re-watching. Such things are notoriously subjective. And it's been a pretty long time since T&D were the top ice dancers. I don't especially like the way they dance now, and I am heartily sick of "Bolero". I think they do a good job on DOI, I'm sure they know much more about the technical details that I do, and their comments might educate me, or let me see things in a new way, but I'm not going to prefer their opinion of an artistic performance to my own. They might say something that would change my opinion, but so far they haven't.

My main point in this thread is that other people might find themselves on the same path that I did: from being blown away by Ray's performance in week 1 to thinking that his ice-dancing is not actually all that interesting.

Has anyone said it wasn't difficult? Certainly I haven't.

I have a fair amount of 1st hand experience of ice skating (years), btw, though only for fun.

I don't know if he is capable of all the tricks of professional ice dancers, but in the routines he's done so far he looks more like a professional than his partner does. Whether that is a positive reflection on him, negative on Maria, or both, I don't know.

I agree with you on the Bolero,time we had something a little more challenging,but with regard to the technical side of things well I have never put on a pair of skates and personally only view the show as an entertainment programme and I find Ray very entertaining along with Todd for different reasons.
I can agree with you that there are others that will feel the same way as you though .

I love ice dancing - I followed T and D's career and also watch the ice championships every year.....and obviously Ray is not in the same league as professional skaters (how could he be!) but for a novice he is by any standards - outstanding.

I'm sure his dance experience and his roller blading will have helped him with balance - but other contestants have experience that has helped them too. And Ray's youth and his total lack of fear on the ice are what also allows him to be so good. Fear of falling contributes to lack of confidence and is what holds back most contestants.

But it's Ray's interpretation of the music and the emotion he puts into the skating that is so wonderful and so thrilling to watch.

Ice Dancing has never been about the big lifts and tricks - that was always the premise of the "pairs" skaters - ice dancing is exactly what it says on the tin .....dancing on ice....and that is what Ray does - he dances on ice so beautifully and it's sheer joy to watch him.

Some of the skaters manage to pull off big lifts - but often the lead into and out of them and the lifts themselves are very awkward and ungainly and personally I would far rather watch someone who can really dance on ice - than just do tricks on ice.

I think Ray has the potential to go far in this competition and with anything and everything else that he does. He has such talent and such great enthusiasm. Good for him. It's lovely to see.

Imo, Ray's performances are exaggerated and rather clichéd.

Ray has some fairly high level dance experience and can dance well (and so of course has noticeable ability to interpret and present music) -- but I don't think he dances in an especially interesting way. Less experienced dancers can be more natural (even if sometimes awkward) and more interesting.


To clarify, since I've emphasised how impressive his week 1 performance was, I was also impressed by week 3's, initially. It was only re-watching the show that changed my view. Now, in retrospect, I am less impressed by week 1's as well.

I agree with all of this 100%,nice post