I read somewhere that the Humax Freesat PVR is based on the ICord which is based on GPL'ed Linux software.
I read that Humax are violating the GPL by not releasing the source code. In theory they should also release the Freesat PVR source code then or am I wrong?

There's already a thread discussing this... but personally, I think the GPL agreement is murky and isn't that enforceable...

My understanding is, you only have to release the GPL code that you modify and use... Theoretically, the HDR could be using unmodified GPL code working together with code they wrote from scratched... so no need to release any code...

I spoke to Humax's commercial director in November and he said they'd like to make this sort of thing available for their linux based products and have talked internally about it. People can also then make changes or new features themselves and share with the community if they so wish. But they need to work out how to do that at the same time as protecting some intellectual assets and also security issues; some of which may belong to partners outside of Humax that are to do with the build of the box which they are obliged to consider. Watch this space.
Thinking about it, Freesat theselves were Humax customers in the case of the Foxsat-HD/R so it may not be up to Humax to put certain information in the public domain without permissions. To me it all looks very much like there are probably a few commercial considerations here and there that will eventually need to be looked at first.
In the mean time you can also ask Humax themselves directly and if they say no, go all the way to the courts and explain that you need it sooner rather than later.

Home made features sounds like a nightmare for Humax, someone writes something and people install it, then Humax end up with thousands of bricked boxes through no fault of their own.

Id rather they give us the optional features that we know for sure will work.

Sounds like a support nightmare. Official Freesat doesnt sound like the right market.

Thanks for this Marc. Personally, I think that is just all talk... If they were serious about releasing any code, those sort of issues would have been thought about, way before the HDR's development and release...

Also, has any of the iCORD HD's code been released? I would have expected the Germans would be constantly knocking on Humax's door for this...

Talking of the iCORD HD, I've found this: http://opencord.wiki.sourceforge.net/

Make what you will of it... There's also this: http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipe...er/001411.html which is has not made any sort of stir... and reading the reply to that post - it would seem that Humax need only release the source of the code that has 'the modifications that were necessary to run the software on that box'... so even that would be pretty useless (as I would expect them not to include 3rd party or NDA code.)

I agree and would have thought so too.

When the subject came up the talk was about the development process for the next freeview PVR for DVB-t2. What I did is point out the German iCord-HD, that came with the wish by some in Humax to supply sources to enable community development, and where that got to - bearing in mind it could be suitable for the DVB-T2 models, if not the controlled Freesat market. Yes it appears Humax came across some potential blockers, but he said its not to say a solution isn't surmountable in the future given its their ideas in the first place. Where there is a will there is a chance, but suspect this isnt something high up on the list of things to look at.

Humax has a GPL statement available and we do make available reference to the GPL software that we use, if anyone wants further information they can contact us (I think I recall the manual has some information on this). We don't specifically modify sources of third-party libraries used because that way we are not deviating from the original and can follow the official upgrade path for those libraries. We are not obliged to provide the source for our applications because they are separate from the libraries. Our legal team carefully monitor the status of any new libraries we need to use to ensure they meet our obligations.

Our source for the software we write is the heart of our business and to release Humax specific code would mean that anyone could clone our products without investing in the development as we have done. Manufacturing is easy to commission from contractors, all that remains in this age we are in is intellectual property and R&D.

I am keen on community involvement, and while the iCord/Foxsat-HD(R) may not be the place for community development, I continue to be interested in finding a business model for such a business.

Bob
Last edited by Bob_Cat : 02-02-2009 at 15:23

I see... thanks again, Marc... So it would make sense if this 'open source' model might be the way to go with the Humax DVB-T2 box... This would be exciting!

AFAIK, the only certified Linux DVB-S/2 PVR is the AB IPBox and obviously that is not completely open source (HDMI code., etc.) Completely or near open source boxes such as Dream Multimedia's DM800 or DM8000 failed to get certification due to this fact (that they are open source)...

I suppose Humax would come across these issues too, if they are seriously thinking about open source for the HD Freeview PVR... but I think a flexible API sort of thing (like TAPs) would be better than nothing!

That would. But from what Bob just posted it coud be freeview might not have met their criteria either, if he is in a situation where the right opportnity is still yet to be found. boo hoo

Oh well... Maybe, the best we can hope for is an API...

If not for the Freeview HD box, then maybe for the quad tuner hybrid Freesat/Freeview HD box that I am talking about here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...d.php?t=982219

Keep up that crazy talk and you'll have Richard Stallman to deal with...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/open_source.png

I've had a look but can't find a GPL statement anywhere, let alone links to modified GPL code. A search for "GPL" in the manual yields nothing.

I'm not trying to be an arse, but can you provide some kind of link?

There's no chance Humax haven't fiddled with the Linux Kernel in order to get it to run on such specialist hardware.

I've know a lot of people who contribute to the linux kernel and it's a joke that Humax (or broadcam, or whoever) can take their code, use it for themselves and then refuse to give it to anyone else, as per the licence.

This is the sort of page that should be on the Humax site:
http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl
http://www.tivo.com/linux/

Ok, taken from a template document I have:

HUMAX products use certain open source operating system software distributed pursuant to GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2
and GNU LESSER GENERAL LICENSE Version 2.1 each as de ned and published by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.
The following GPL and LGPL software source codes used in this product can be provided. Please contact us at gnu[nospam]@[nospam]humaxdigital.com.

GPL Software
linux
busybox
e2fsprogs

LGPL Software
uClibc

Thanks very much for posting that, it's good to see that Humax (or a representative of!) hasn't simply ignored the issue.

As you might expect, I've not been able to find that statement anywhere on the web. Might be an idea to get the web team or whoever to make a "gpl" page, just like tivo/tomtom, even if it just has that paragraph on. It'd save a lot of flack!

You have to consider what is more important: for Humax to display the GPL notice or for you/us to get our hands on the modified code..?

I suggest, if you think the code has been drastically modified by one party or another, then contact them and ask for it under the GPL.

See how far you can get...

Even if you only use unmodified GPL code you have to make it available to the end users (you don't need to make it available to everyone, just your customers/users).

Its not actually Humax's fault - Broadcom provide the main chips and the SDK, and they have a history of not telling their customers about their GPL obligations.

(All I want to do is enable the ethernet port and the httpd in busybox so I can copy/stream the files from the box without using the USB. Might as well use the stuff seeing as its all provided).

At this point, that would be a superb leap forward, but still need to be able to play external files. That would make this device far more of a home entertainment system, and we know it can be!!

I would support this. Is it time to contact Humax for the code?

Presumably you can ask - but I don't think they are under any obligation to provide you all of their code. How were you planning getting it in the box?, and do you have the required cross compiler?.

Not I, but someone might... Maybe stiggle has or some other tools for the job...

It is one thing getting the kernel or a few libraries but the core STB application is more important as far as development is concerned. It is unlikely we would ever take contributions. For features you will have to wait for them to be properly integrated into the software by our engineers.

Bob

And of course there are other ways... if you know what you are doing... like firmware patching...