Just as a refresher, I watched Bolero on Youtube today. I was amazed to see that Chris Dean lifted Jayne Torvill above shoulder height just twice in a 6-minute routine, and both of those lifts were more like large assisted jumps.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of lifts in the routine that were far from easy, but they weren't all about Jayne flying round the rink over Chris's head.

It really hammered home the point for me that this kind of skating is about the moves you make over the ice, their skill and fluency, not about waving the woman in the air every time you get the chance.

I think lifts are a bit overratted to be honest.... They can be very impressive when done right...

Melinda has a seriously poor skate on sunday; however the lift at the end was wow and recovered the performance (slightly). I think if you don't overegg the lifts and it builds to a moment then they work - however only when executed correctly and they actually flow with the dance (take note Roxanne and Daniel).

I can't really remember Ray doing any exceptional lifts - ok they're prob not easy, but the emphasis in the routines is on the dancing and nifty skating skills and saving the lifts for the right moments.

Female celebs get lifted to cover the dodgy skating to begin with; however I think may be in the future they should be restricted to say two lifts per routine to begin with as perfecting the lifts probably eats into the actual basic skating skills.

have to agree always preferred the ice dance to the pairs skating. I hope Chris will go down the ice dance route with regards to lifts for Ray

I think the big lifts can be overrated when it comes to the females rather than the males.

With the females it can become all about the lifts. I much prefer the ice dance skill, fluidity and elegance.

I would enjoy it just as much without the lifts. I tend to enjoy the little ones that work well. For example in Jessica's routine this week when Pavel picks her up near the start and twirls her around ballroom style. The ones where they're zipping 8 feet above the ground are all flash and no substance, IMO.

I have to say, i think for those bits to really work, the celeb has to be really good. Although i really do enjoy Donal but that is mainly because of his lovely smile.

I agree. With some of the routines I find myself thinking, "For God's sake just put her down and let her do some skating!" Same applies with the biggest "lift" of all - "flying". What's interesting about stuff on ice is that ice is slippery and difficult to stay upright on. If people are lifted over it for anything longer than a moment, it all becomes a bit pointless for me.
That said, I really enjoyed the "cartwheel" lifts Ray and Maria did on Sunday, but perhaps that's because they flowed seamlessly into the routine and required quite a bit of skill from both partners instead of just the expert.

Mmm, I likes a bit of flash!

I think lifts are overrated, too. I'd rather there was more focus on the footwork than on the lifts, which have become predictable and boring this series.

I think I`m right but if my memory serves me well I`m sure that in competitive ice dancing the lifts are not allowed to be over a certain height (shoulder?) and that the couple must not be apart without at least touching hands for a certain amount of time too. I`m sure there must be someone on here who knows the rules, I`m just going on my memory from when I used to watch Jayne and Chris skate in the olympics etc. I know this is an entertainment show so the rules are not strictly enforced but I`d much rather see them learn to skate than just be pushed around and lifted in the air.

There are quite a few rules of ice dancing like no lifts over the shoulders - DOI is more like pairs than ice dance.

In ice dance you're not allowed to do more than half a rotation on your jump, no lifts above shoulder height - i think J&C got into trouble with this on their return in 1994 because of Chris flipping Jayne over his shoulder at the end.

You now can't spend time on the ice, you have to be skating for the whole length of the music - they closed this loophole after everyone started "dying" on the ice after bolero.

DOI definitely doesn't follow the competition rules for Ice Dancing. It doesn't even follow the rules for Pairs skating. It's more like learning to do a routine for a show - which is what they do I suppose.

Having said that, my favourite lift is Andrei doing his one handed lift over his head when he whirls round and round. That looks incredibly difficult for the female to me - trying to stay level and not just folding in half. And he must be very strong to be able to do that.

I think DOI is based around Adagio skating which is designed combine pairs and dance.

I love lifts in competitive and show ice skating when the rest of the skating is smooth and/or done at speed and the lift is a seamless part of the programme - in a novice routine (even a very good one) like on DOI there is rarely that continuity.

I would rather they stick to dance lifts and jumps really well-done on DOI, but I suspect that a lot of viewers would miss the more daring efforts even though they are generally not brilliantly done.

I like the lifts

Although I agree that a certain amount per routine should be made or it shouldn't consist of the whole routine!

Its not an olympic skating competition though. Nor is it clear that a 2009 audience would watch one. Ice skating in its various forms lives on Eurosport and gets tiny audiences. DOI is a primetime mass TV show and TV requires something to happen. None of the contestants can do the moves that are required to do a full Bolero level routine let alone anything with more speed, spins or jumps. The options are everyone doing watered down Bolero like routines that only one or two people a series have the skating or dance ability to make watchable or getting people to do something more dramatic within their capabilities which is waht they have gone for

There's also the rather telling problem that T and D only had to find one routine for a competition wheras some of the celebrities will be doing about 10. There's only so many times you can ask people to tune in to watch the same thing without different dramatic moments. It needs to be something thats different enough not to look the same and something that can be worked up in less than a week - its not going to be Bolero 2 -10. You already have a situation where Ellery's big lift was about the only thing happening in his routine, most of the girls have already used up the same repertoire of steps in between changing the lifts and the two strongest skaters are looking the same every week even with some less strong lifts. You could have everyone doing a Donal and doing some weak dancing moving slowly around the stage and an easy lft but I don't think anyone much would watch.

It's interesting that you say that. A large problem that people have with the lifts is what you just said about the dancing - that it's all the same. You've seen one headbanger, you've seen them all, really.

Now I agree with points of both the last two posts. I do see that to those who are tuning in to DOI as more of an occasional skating/celebrity viewer it's more exciting to see the dramatic - which includes big lifts.

However, even big lifts can get samey. I think a lot of the audience who watch DOI might be quite willing to forgo a few "big money" moments in order to see some skating. Yes, ice skating is only watched by the minority nowadays but that's principally because British skaters are (comparitively) rubbish. As an audience nowadays we're very ephemeral and need some reason to keep watching. On DOI the celebrities are that reason. I don't actually think we need quite so many tricks from the females to keep the tv audience entertained.

we have not one but two Ice dancing couples in the WORLD top twenty and a pairs Couple also in the top 10.. its a pity the country, and the BBC (who do not show any highlights at all now) didn't watch the Europeans, yes we lag behind in the mens and ladies and the selection process seriously needs looking at ( we sent the person who came 5th in the GB trials to represent us )


any minority sport will stay that way unless there is TV coverage and adequate funding to create interest

I think some lifts are good, and I greatly prefer pairs skating to ice dancing. However,
[list=1][*]I am sick of the headbanger.[*]Some routines have too many lifts and not enough skating.[*]DOI needs to decide how important skating is. We shouldn't keep hearing judges saying skating is important but then not following that in their marking when someone (this week it was Zoe) does a lift-packed routine, especially when they'll sooner or later criticise someone else for not doing enough skating.[/list]

I think ( for the average viewer) and the confused viewers like me, that the judges should have BIG labels stating WHAT they are judging on , How can Ruthie Judge Skating, she is not qualified whilst Nicky is more than qualified he seems to judge on "trying" Karen is too nice and Jason just fancies ray

yes i agree the headbanger is illegal in competition on the circuit and dull now on this show.
I do enjoy when the Celeb "invents" or does something new, unfortunately we then see this milked, like Chris's fast spin and Donals (what was it called) knee bend on ice move I would therefore like to see compulsory spins one week, they may not look as impressive but even at the top level the skater is only required a minimum of 8 turns, thus that must be difficult, I'm not saying Colleen should try 8 turns but a spin together or in unison would be interesting for me to see how they cope

That's right. No one watches the Olympics.


A similar point has been made for ballroom dancing. Yet SCD gets a good-sided audience despite strict restrictions on lifts.


If so, then since they can do lifts, lifts must be the easy option, just as those who complained about Zoe's high marks suspected.

I pretty much agree with you about everything DOI related, however... I don't think lifts are strictly "easier". With certain lifts especially it takes a LOT of strength and coordination from the woman to complete.

My problem is that it's a different skill to ice skating. I don't necessarily value it any less, but when watching an ice dancing competition I want to see both parties with their feet on the ice, improving that skill.

Could be because a large proportion of the population can't get Eurosport. Put it back on BBC or ITV and see what happens.

I agree that lifts require strength and coordination, and some lifts even require a lot of skating ability on the way in or out. Think of some of the pairs skating lifts in which the woman is thrown spinning through the air and has to land gracefully on the ice already skating.

But if it's being argued (as it seemed to be in thenetworkbabe's post) that DOI needs lifts because the DOI skaters couldn't do sufficiently interesting skating, spins, or jumps, then that does make it sound like the lifts are easier.

Anyway, I think Roxy's skate this week shows some of the problems lifts create in DOI. Imo, she should never have been given that routine. Instead, she should have been directed to spend the time on sharpening up her skating and performance, and on learning a lift that she could get into and out of gracefully -- things that would also help her in later weeks. Rather than on a lackluster, "sack of spuds" lift that seemed tacked on at the end rather than a natural part of the dance.

So why did Roxy do it? She seemed to think it would help her get higher marks, and evidently neither T&D nor her pro partner disabused her of that notion.

That can only happen, imo, if neither T&D nor her pro partner understand how the judges mark; and that can only happen the marking criteria are unclear and inconsistent.

It might be argued that good lifts will get good marks and poor lifts poor ones, so that Roxy's lift failed to get her higher marks only because it was a poor one. But if that's actually the case, and T&D and Roxy's partner knew it, then they should have been able to work out earlier in the week that the lift was not going to help her and changed the routine. So there'd still have to be a problem somewhere, either in the marking criteria or in T&D and the pro skater's understanding.

I don't think doi is supposed to be compared to competitive ice skating - whether pairs or dancing. The rules are far too complex to be followed with such a show.

However, I do tend to agree with those who say that they could happily do without the lifts. Like the headbanger, we all know they are very clever etc etc etc, but when you see the same thing week in week out, they get boring.

As a compromise, I would like to see each routine restricted to one lift only - and, although the lift itself can be the couples choice, it should be a different lift each week.

The rest of the time the celeb should have his/her skates on the ice, with at least part of each routine NOT clinging for dear life onto his/her partner for support.

It might be nice as well, if, round about week 6-7, the "required element" could be the celeb coming on to the ice alone, and skating solo for maybe one-third of the time allowed.