We have several threads now devoted to bugs, missing features and annoyances of the Humax PRV. There is one group who get very irate about these and another who get very irate about people complaining!

I'm sure there are others here who have worked in development situations who will be feeling a great deal of sympathy for the Humax developers. Developing a complex UI, particularly where it has to interact with third party data (in this case the transmitted data stream which is not the most reliable anyway) is never an easy business. You can test and test and test and test but the moment someone else tries the system you can be pretty sure it will fall over (if not actually crashing at least doing something rather odd). It's only when you get it out with the users that you get a real feel for all the odd niggles and annoyances.

Humax have done a brilliant job of making the the most important parts of the PVR work extremely well and are to be congratulated on that. Given the undoubtedly urgent nature of the development, the need to rely on third part data streams and the overall complexity of the UI I would have been very surprised if there had been fewer of the little annoyances that we see when testing the box at leisure over the course of a few months.

So long as they sort out the worst of them with the next update I don't think we have anything to complain about (although if the first update is used to implement LAN features that only a very few users are really bothered about at the expense of the UI problems that affect everyone I won't be too impressed).

So by all means let's keep reporting the bugs and annoyances but let's bear in mind that testing something of this complexity is very far from an easy task and give credit where it's due.

I wholeheartedly second this excellent motion

In my experience I have seen a few minor niggles but nothing that has in any way detracted from it's primary purpose, namely a freesat+ twin tuner HD capable pvr.

How do you know that only a very few users are really bothered about LAN features - have you done a survey or something? Networking is quite popular these days. My most anticipated inclusion in any pending update is LAN functionality...

Yes.


I'd like to see LAN functionality in the form of the ability to set the box via Digiguide or similar and archiving but I don't think that would be the best way for Humax to spend thier time (look on the bright side: they don't even ask me how I think they should be spending their time ). I'm pretty sure most people buy or are thinking of buying the box for what Graham describes above as its "primary purpose, namely a freesat+ twin tuner HD capable pvr."

Maybe Humax should consider a public Beta of the next firmware, then those, such as I who are willing to take the risk and see new features first can do so.

I agree with the first post, but I think Humax could score extra kudos by opening up some bug report tool and letting its core-test users monitor the status of certain bugs. (and provide updates in the form of firmware or progress reports). We help Humax by reporting bugs/suggestions, and Humax helps us by making some improvements.

We have reported many bugs (some larger ones, a lot of smaller ones) and tons of suggestions (some more realistic than others). We are afterall all hoping for the same thing, improving this great piece of hardware (otherwise we wouldn't have bothered buying it in the first place).

Exactly. Do one thing and do it very very well with a great, simple interface. Only add features when you've got the basics spot on - that's always been Apple's philosophy. The iPod still lacks functionality that other mp3 players have had for years but still beats all of them hands down for ease (and pleasure) of use.

There is no unit out there for Freeview or Freesat, whether it be an ordinary set top box OR a pvr can fully be tested 'in house' it is impossible because of the many different variables encountered once it is 'out in the field.
Its a similar situation to for example Microsoft. You can test all you want 'in house' but you cannot possibly test for everyones different set ups. This is why what seems stable and working fine then produces lots of problems and bugs surface as users actually use the software.

We all have different strengths of signal for example, different connected makes of TV, use different leads to connect other different av equipment in much the same way that all our PC's are connected to different printers,modems etc.
You can only test 'in house' up to a point then you have to have 'external' testers preferably scattered up and down the country (to enable different signal variations to be tested) before you can say that your software/hardware is working okay.
All company's also need constructive feedback about their products as they need to keep their product relevant to what the end user requires.

GG

Here is the PVR spec from the Humax website:
[LIST][*]freesat HD and SD channel recording[*]Simultaneous viewing of one channel and recording another channel[*]Record 2 channels at the same time[*]Receive HDTV signals[*]Under 1W power consumption in standby[*]HDMI - digital interface for perfect transmission of picture and sound[*]Simultaneous playing of transmissions over HDMI, Composite or Scart[*]Easy installation and operation[*]Resolution format: 1080i, 720p, 576p, 576i[*]DVB-S2 and DVB-S compatible[*]Ethernet support (for future use)[*]Full colour high resolution electronic programme guide[*]Automatic software upgrade via satellite[*]Upscaling Standard Definition channels[*]Audio description / One touch subtitle[/LIST]
I believe all of these functions (with the exception of Ethernet support) are working satisfactorily. Therefore Humax are obliged to address the one feature that has not yet been implemented.

You can test something to the nth degree in house but the consumer has an uncanny knack of finding ways of using the box that you could never envisage in testing scenarios.

When a facility tests something they do it from a position of knowing what the unit should do according to the design specs. The end user on the other hand will try things from a position of ignorance, assumptions and their own intuition. Couple this with issues caused by reception variability and interference, then nothing will ever be completely bug free from day one and no testing can be said to be fully comprehensive (diminishing returns).

From this perspective I think Humax have done a fantastic job with the HDR.

I am a retired Project Manager/Systems Analyst and know only too well the pitfalls of dealing with the end user!

On the whole the Humax Foxsat-HDR does what it advertises well and I have no problems with the functionality of its operational controls. Where it is let down is the reliability of the Broadcasters in supplying/maintaining accurate meta data in their broadcast streams. I've lost count of the missed series link recordings from Transponder 13 (BBC News & BBC Alba) due to this. This of course is outside the direct control of Humax.


Details please!

I'm sure they will.

...


In the future.

I'm sure you can guess.

In my line of work, no one can afford to or ever guess! But I will take it has a wee touch of sarcasm then!

I have almost daily conversations about IP features in our Freesat products. Three calls yesterday, one conversation and five emails today... You will all just have to wait, it won't be soon, but I feel it will be better than many might expect. It hasn't gone as quickly as I had hoped, but it is better than I had planned.

As always, thanks for the support, those that care. We tested this product more than any new product I have yet seen. However, as pointed out it is impossible to find every niggle before launch.

Bob
Last edited by Bob_Cat : 11-02-2009 at 19:49

My 'survey' involved asking everyone I knew who had a PVR if they would like LAN functionality - probably around a dozen people.

The results where (roughly):

50% Eh?
50% To do what?

Extrapolating from that I felt fairly safe in saying that it was something comparatively few wanted.

How did they respond when you explained that it would enable iPlayer etc?

No one was really interested.

I think that having bought a PVR in order to be able to record what they wanted to watch, then watch it when they wanted to, they thought the iplayer functionality was a bit redundant.

Unless the iplayer does something other than what I told them, i.e. allowed them to watch things that had been transmitted during the last week.

Kangeroo OTOH might have been something to cause a bit of excitement. I'm just hoping to eventually get LAN functionality that will enable us to set our boxes via Digiguide.

This is a problem with the public at large, lack of forward thinking (sarcasm, maybe!).

I'm hoping for, but not expecting, the ability to at least transfer files across a network. Acting as a DLNA client would also be a nice feature, the Broadcom chip is certainly capable of this. It would be a shame if Humax do not take the opportunity to 'allow' this product to reach its full potential, but I guess that will depend, to a large extent, on the budget allocated to further development and the projected sales figures, hence profitability.

And once the users report back with not just a niggle or an annoyance but with a major bug, how long do you think it should take the developers to roll out a fix? Do you think over four years (and counting) is acceptable? Because that is the time users of another Humax product have had to wait and are still waiting.

This is my first Humax product but I'd always heard that they were very responsive to bug reports.

What is this bug?

If I'd bought a box with a major bug I'd have taken it back (as I was prepared to do with this one if it had had any serious flaw in its basic functionality - e.g > ~10% of recordings not being made properly). Why did these users not do likewise?

It would have concentrated the minds at Humax wonderfully if they had had to contend with a high level of returns and dealers refusing to continue stocking the item because of the hassles.

I too agree with the original poster.

Overall Humax have done a great job, its just its not entirely perfect yet and there are some features / implementation that have been overlooked (especially the non Freesat side).

As for the ethernet, I'm not sure what the clammer for this is. When it comes to transferring files to the pc, provided it allows HD, it will be a boost for most with that usuage in mind.

However, when it comes to tv on demand / internet tv, anyone who thinks they're going to get great tv over the net is dreaming. Most internet speeds are hundreds of times lower than current broadcast bit rates for HD tv and the internet is prone to drop outs and pauses. If you only ever type text you might not notice these delays ordinarily beyond a web page taking perhaps longer to post your text than expected. However, they're there and for any kind of streaming tv they will be disruptive. How are you going to feel when your tv programme stops and start buffering every few seconds? The only other way of tv on demand would be to download a file to your box then watch it locally but immediately here I can see HD problems with content protection and possibly long downloads because of the file size to get broadcast equivolent pictures. You have to remember that many programmes are measure in GB not MB when it comes to file size (or to put in another way, look at your hard drive's content then divide the used proportion of 320GB by the number of programmes allowing 4 times the file size for HD as SD - that will give you a rough indication of average file sizes. I doubt many would even attempt a 1GB download off the internet for their pC nevermind a multi GB download).

That's so funny

I've just completed a similarly extensive survey asking 2 mates with Humax freesat. The result? 100% of those asked want LAN functionality above all else. Extrapolating these results shows that 100% of the entire owner population agree.

With reference to Bob's comments, that's fantastic news thanks, I'm more than happy to wait knowing that it's in the pipeline. The PVR is a great product with excellent support.

Well it was a response to the sarcastic question: "have you conducted a survey or something?"

In truth, I had but it was not exactly exhaustive!


Not really the same thing at all.

If you ask around a disparate group of people and a dozen all say the same thing it's reasonably indicative that the opinion is quite common.

i.e. If the population was divided 50/50 on the subject the probability of asking 12 people and them all answering that they are not interested is .000244. The probability after asking two is .25!

Maybe, if the total population of PVR owners is less than 50! Take a look here.

Anyway, sounds like Humax are working on the IP stuff which is great.