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freesat+HDR too expensive |
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#1 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Crawley, W Sussex
Posts: 5,556
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freesat+HDR too expensive
how can humax justify the cost of the freesat+ hdr?
At over £290 (plus installation of £50-100) compared to the cost of the 9300 freeview HDR at around £165. Surely the cost of the 2 freesat tuners cannot be that much more than the cost of 2 freeview tuners? |
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#2 |
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Redditch Worcs
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Quote:
how can humax justify the cost of the freesat+ hdr?
At over £290 (plus installation of £50-100) compared to the cost of the 9300 freeview HDR at around £165. Surely the cost of the 2 freesat tuners cannot be that much more than the cost of 2 freeview tuners? You can bet a single tuner non recording Freeview HD box is going to cost around £100.00 initially |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The City and County of Bristol
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New adapters always pay through the nose.
When Sky sold me the HD+ box back when they launch HD, it cost me £299-00p + subscriptions. I still use that box for CH4HD but can’t even record on it thanks to $ky. Other FreeSat PVRs are coming onto the market soon (so I am told) and this may create a bit of competition for Humax and bring the prices down. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hawkwell, Essex
Posts: 2,186
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Quote:
how can humax justify the cost of the freesat+ hdr?
At over £290 (plus installation of £50-100) compared to the cost of the 9300 freeview HDR at around £165. Surely the cost of the 2 freesat tuners cannot be that much more than the cost of 2 freeview tuners? ![]() Rgds. Les. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
Recovery of sunk R&D cost, new technology price curve (it's the 1st Freesat+ PVR on the market) price will fall after a while & volume kicks in, supply/demand, probably more reasons ......
![]() Rgds. Les. ![]() As for prices dropping as volume kicks in - unless the cost drops dramatically I can't see a mass move to purchase this over-priced box - especially for a few hrs of HD repeats on bbcHD and the odd programme on itvHD |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hawkwell, Essex
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I may be oversimplifying, but surely the majority of components of the 2 machines will be the same - only the tuners should be different?
![]() As for prices dropping as volume kicks in - unless the cost drops dramatically I can't see a mass move to purchase this over-priced box - especially for a few hrs of HD repeats on bbcHD and the odd programme on itvHD Under R&D, I included the software programming to make all this work. In a lot of respects, it works quite differently to the 9300T, and this takes development. From my work experience, I know how expensive Software Development, Testing, and Commissioning can be, even at overseas rates ![]() ![]() ![]() Plus, you really ignored 2 of my points - 1st Freesat+ PVR, and Supply/Demand. Humax could, within reason, charge what they like until more Freesat+ PVRs come along and drive down price. Plus, Humax don't control HD content from the broadcasters. I'm not defending Humax here, just putting forward some points on why the price is what it is. FWIW, as an early adopter, I'm satisfied I got value for money, YMMV. Rgds. Les. Last edited by savvy : 07-03-2009 at 12:29. Reason: Correction of Freeview+ to Freesat+ (sic) |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ilkeston
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Quote:
I may be oversimplifying, but surely the majority of components of the 2 machines will be the same - only the tuners should be different?
![]() As for prices dropping as volume kicks in - unless the cost drops dramatically I can't see a mass move to purchase this over-priced box - especially for a few hrs of HD repeats on bbcHD and the odd programme on itvHD They probably are to a certain degree but the twin tuner model would have taken far longer to design, cost more to build and longer to test and with expected lower volume sales the price has to be higher to recover one off initial costs. Obviously the premium nature of the product compared to a single tuner will also be in play, it's easier to pad the price when people expect to pay more. When the point is reached that Humax have recovered startup costs then prices will fall just as they did with the Freeview PVR's. The launch of additional Freesat PVR's from other manufacturers will accelerate price cuts but will the global market negate some of these as exchange rates hurt the far east manufacturing plants. |
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#8 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
I may be oversimplifying, but surely the majority of components of the 2 machines will be the same - only the tuners should be different?
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#9 |
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Quote:
They probably are to a certain degree but the twin tuner model would have taken far longer to design, cost more to build and longer to test and with expected lower volume sales the price has to be higher to recover one off initial costs.
Obviously the premium nature of the product compared to a single tuner will also be in play, it's easier to pad the price when people expect to pay more. When the point is reached that Humax have recovered startup costs then prices will fall just as they did with the Freeview PVR's. The launch of additional Freesat PVR's from other manufacturers will accelerate price cuts but will the global market negate some of these as exchange rates hurt the far east manufacturing plants. as for premium products - I chose to compare to the 9300 because that is one of the premium end of the freeview dual-tuner boxes and is also made by humax! I stilll think it is over-priced - will wait to see what happens with freeview HD |
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#10 |
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not sure why you compare to the single tuner model - both 9300 and freesat+HD have 2 tuners?
as for premium products - I chose to compare to the 9300 because that is one of the premium end of the freeview dual-tuner boxes and is also made by humax! I was comparing single tuner models to twin tuners both on Freeview and Freesat but not against eachother, the 9300 is a second or is it third generation Freeview PVR and can not be compared to the first gen Dsat version due to production costs related to a new product line. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent and reading your first post it seems likely but again if you do compare the two then you have a machine probably built on an upgraded 9200 line which has paid for itself many times over compared to a brand new line and a SD only box with dirt cheap chipset against a HD box, even the addition of HDMI and scaling probably doesn't offset the mpeg4 solution in the Freesat PVR. Quote:
I stilll think it is over-priced - will wait to see what happens with freeview HD
In terms of components and production then yes but first gen products as we've seen for well decades are priced not only to make a profit on themselves but to cover all the associated costs of the launch of a low volume new product. I don't think there is any doubt that the first Freeview HD box will carry a generous premium over a SD counterpart even from the same manufacturer. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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At over £290 (plus installation of £50-100) compared to the cost of the 9300 freeview HDR at around £165.
![]() http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/index.p...max-foxsat-hdr As is always the case with manufacture of new products, the initial fixed price is to recover R&D costs, once that's covered, they'll be selling at build price only which should bring the price down. |
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#12 |
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Quote:
Well, technically down to £274.98 at the moment
![]() http://www.joinfreesat.co.uk/index.p...max-foxsat-hdr As is always the case with manufacture of new products, the initial fixed price is to recover R&D costs, once that's covered, they'll be selling at build price only which should bring the price down. As for the point that the amount of HD content is irrelevent - it certainly isn't, it is the main argument in justifying the additional cost of the HD box over the 9300 and as such ain't worth it. |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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As for the point that the amount of HD content is irrelevent - it certainly isn't, it is the main argument in justifying the additional cost of the HD box over the 9300 and as such ain't worth it.
If you were referring to my post, I said that Humax do not control the amount of HD content, which is true ![]() Rgds. Les. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Quote:
Surely the cost of the 2 freesat tuners cannot be that much more than the cost of 2 freeview tuners?
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#15 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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I still think I will wait - even if it means forgoing the odd itvHD offering - hopefully others will rush out and buy so the price drops to a more realistic level.
Historically Humax don't drop their prices very fast, they make decent products at a decent price - and discerning customers are willing to pay the going price. Quote:
As for the point that the amount of HD content is irrelevent - it certainly isn't, it is the main argument in justifying the additional cost of the HD box over the 9300 and as such ain't worth it. |
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#16 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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I still think I will wait - even if it means forgoing the odd itvHD offering - hopefully others will rush out and buy so the price drops to a more realistic level.
Humax have already said they are looking at hard drive sizes for the future, not least of which because many of us have had to self swap for larger drives as 320GB simply isn't big enough. Its also a fair point about the tuners. 2 tuners there may be but you're comparing SD to HD and HD requires a whole host of more powerful components as it takes far more processing power, decoding power, rendering power and far more memory to mention just a few of the differences. Theres also the MPEG 4 licensing and the copyprotection circuitry. The boxes are quite different which is why a Freesat non PVR HD box costs £110-140 compared to as little as £15 for a Freeview non PVR! |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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I think I have posted on this subject before, but I will repeat some of the clarifications. It is not true that they (the 9300T and Foxsat-HDR) share many of the same components, they are very different beasts.
* First take the tuners, I am informed that a DVB-T tuner is just a quarter of the silicon complexity of an S2 receiver, silicon complexity is proportional to price. The tuner boards for the Foxsat products alone are relatively expensive. * The decoder silicon has to be capable of MPEG2 and MPEG4 AVC, as well as have enough grunt to handle HD decoding and output (approximately 6x more complex). * To decode HD video you need substantially more RAM and the Foxsat products have quite a lot of RAM to meet that demand. * The software in the Foxsat-HD is a generation on from the current Freeview+ products and has a great deal more features, some yet to be fully exploited. * Licenses: each technology requires the payment of royalties which adds to the cost. In addition to this, as has been discussed in the other Freesat forum, the weak currency and relative position of the Dollar has meant that component costs have had a significant affect on the price position of consumer electronics. Luckily we have been able to manage with the currency situation because Humax operates very efficiently. I welcome the challenge of anyone attempting to bring another product to market that can beat us on price while maintaining quality/reliability/features. One of the biggest challenges for another manufacturer would be in importing from Asia, Humax manufacturers these products in Europe and thus has a Tax advantage. Bob PS. I can't say for sure, but I expect Freeview HD boxes to match or exceed the price of Freesat products because of the expected very high cost of DVB-T2 first generation silicon. First run silicon is always much more expensive and DVB-T2 is a very challenging technology. Last edited by Bob_Cat : 08-03-2009 at 09:04. Reason: Freeview HD |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
I think I have posted on this subject before, but I will repeat some of the clarifications. It is not true that they (the 9300T and Foxsat-HDR) share many of the same components, they are very different beasts.
* First take the tuners, I am informed that a DVB-T tuner is just a quarter of the silicon complexity of an S2 receiver, silicon complexity is proportional to price. The tuner boards for the Foxsat products alone are relatively expensive. * The decoder silicon has to be capable of MPEG2 and MPEG4 AVC, as well as have enough grunt to handle HD decoding and output (approximately 6x more complex). * To decode HD video you need substantially more RAM and the Foxsat products have quite a lot of RAM to meet that demand. * The software in the Foxsat-HD is a generation on from the current Freeview+ products and has a great deal more features, some yet to be fully exploited. * Licenses: each technology requires the payment of royalties which adds to the cost. In addition to this, as has been discussed in the other Freesat forum, the weak currency and relative position of the Dollar has meant that component costs have had a significant affect on the price position of consumer electronics. Luckily we have been able to manage with the currency situation because Humax operates very efficiently. I welcome the challenge of anyone attempting to bring another product to market that can beat us on price while maintaining quality/reliability/features. One of the biggest challenges for another manufacturer would be in importing from Asia, Humax manufacturers these products in Europe and thus has a Tax advantage. Bob PS. I can't say for sure, but I expect Freeview HD boxes to match or exceed the price of Freesat products because of the expected very high cost of DVB-T2 first generation silicon. First run silicon is always much more expensive and DVB-T2 is a very challenging technology. |
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#19 |
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Very logical comments - and I was happy to pay for what has, so far, turned out to be a good bit of kit. If you are looking for it to be a bit cheaper then do keep your eyes open for the offers that appear from time to time - I managed to get 10% off just by waiting for a Homebase promotion - and, as mentioned above Dixons have an offer at the moment.
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#20 |
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Fact is they are still quite hard to get hold of, and I don't think it's Humax deliberatey choking supply. So as long as enough people are willing to pay the £299 less promotional reductions, you'll have to carry on waiting. To pay £299 for an hour of ITV HD per night is ludicrous, I agree, but that's your problem, not Humax or freesats. You have HD already, and a bundle of PVRs, so you are hardly buying anything with additional utility for yourself. For you, not worth it. For anyone who has std sky and wants an upgrade, very definitely worth is. You are looking at the price from the wrong starting point, that's all.
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#21 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Quote:
how can humax justify the cost of the freesat+ hdr?
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#22 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
thanks for the info - I was aware of the Dixons promo, however £10-15 off is not going to make me rush out and buy.
Plus as I said above, they've already indicated they may up the hard drive capacity. A bigger hard drive costs more pounds so I doubt you'll see them cheaper. As I said above, personally I think they'll put a bigger drive in , maybe 500GB, and keep the price the same. Its a good way of delivering extra value in the eye of the consumer whilst retaining margins (its alos my guess having said they cost extra pounds that they'll wait until hard drive prices fall before bringing the larger capacity model out so they maintain the margins but still look better value to the consumer thereby justifying the continuing price). Either way, I don't see retail falling. |
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#23 |
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I have no problems with the 320GB hard drive, let's remember that it has twice the usable space of a Sky HD drive.
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#24 |
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Posts: n/a
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I would agree with the OP that at £299 it is too expensive although that would be based on my budget rather that value for money. I had a price point I would jump at so when I saw a 2 month old machine for sale on another forum I jumped at it for £235
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#25 |
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Quote:
Fact is they are still quite hard to get hold of, and I don't think it's Humax deliberatey choking supply. So as long as enough people are willing to pay the £299 less promotional reductions, you'll have to carry on waiting. To pay £299 for an hour of ITV HD per night is ludicrous, I agree, but that's your problem, not Humax or freesats. You have HD already, and a bundle of PVRs, so you are hardly buying anything with additional utility for yourself. For you, not worth it. For anyone who has std sky and wants an upgrade, very definitely worth is. You are looking at the price from the wrong starting point, that's all.
I might then also consider getting rid of one of my sky multirooms. Iam, however, a little worried that the humax is as unreliable as sky+HD boxes (judging by the problem threads in this forum - very similar problems to those encountered by sky+HD users) I can part finance by selling my life-time subbed tivo - in great demand for the pvr enthusiasts. |
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