But aren't we supposed to share Ben's feeling of powerlessness over what's happening to him? On the one hand, he's being forced to smuggle heroin into prison and then take it against his will, and on the other hand he's being pressured into making statements in court that are either beyond his recollection or simply untrue. Since the only people who can help him are either criminals or the family and friends of the woman he's accused of murdering, his fate is completely out of his control.
Agree that we are supposed to be sharing his powerlessness and frustration.
We don't know that it is heroin they have injected him with. Could it be a truth drug therefore he owes even more to Mr Nice Guy?
Gosh I'm sorry to be boring on about this programme. I just feel so strongly that if it's written by someone with legal training they could at least make it a bit more accurate. Just a few minutes shaved off the endless bits in prison suggesting that his legal team are actually doing some work on his behalf would be good.
Don't forget that the title of the series - Criminal Justice - has two meanings: that part of the legal system that deals with prosecuting and sentencing criminals; and that justice itself may not be fair and honest... justice is criminal, in other words.
Why was Ben forced down then? Thats an interesting point though, we just ASSUME its heroin, that doesnt mean it is. If it was won't he get even more twitchy later on?
Does anyone else feel that the story as been dragged out too long over the 3 episodes?
There are only two episodes left and there's been hardly any plot development. We're still no closer to finding out what really happened then we were when it started.
I fear that the last episode will feel really rushed as they try to cram everything in and tie up all the loose ends. It could really have done with being ten episodes, rather than five if they were going to move at this pace.
I think the desperate searching for the phone was a sign that maybe he couldnt remember it being taken (didnt he hide it?) so he really panicked :eek:
Another Op said that maybe the other cellmate (not PP) took the phone but hadn't he already left by the time Ben got the phone. Also if he wanted a mobile phone why not go to Mr Nice Guy (sorry forgotten his name)?
im not being horrible but i didnt get what hooch said about the boss guy (cant remember name) liking him because he had half a brain, Ben doesnt seem very bright to me or shown anything to indicate that to the other inmates
I think Freddie is supposed to recognise that Ben is intelligent - something in the eyes, nadthe fact Ben doesn't just cave in to him every time he offers him something.
I admit some of Ben's choices don't seem to have been very bright but that's more naivety than stupidity.
Excellent episode. Getting very intriguing now
I think in the episode on Tuesday Freedie said he knew Ben's mum :eek: How does he know her?
I could be very wrong but I felt he meant he knew her in a generic sense as opposed to personally. He knew the sort of thing a mum would put her son in to try to impress a jury.
It was interesting when Ben told the nice defence lawyer (the Indian girl) "his side", all we heard was he wasnt in the bedroom, so he went downstairs after they had sex, and woke up in the kitchen? Why would he do that, and wouldnt he "remember" what happens in between?
Although WE, the audience, didnt see Ben wake up in the kitchen. We only have "his" word for it.
I think that's all part of the mystery. If we take Ben's word for it then we accept he's suffering from alcohol/drug induced amnesia, which is more than possible.
I am confused. I thought that he only couldn't remember what happened after he had sex with Melanie? In episode 1, we did see him go downstairs, down at least another shot, then later, he wakes up in the kitchen.
No, I think all along he was supposed to have lost what happened in between going downstairs and then waking up to find Melanie dead. That's assuming he lost anything - he could have been unconscious the whole time and someone else killed her.
How did Ben go from having Con O'Neill as his lawyer, to having the Asian lawyer and Alison Slaughter representing him in court as well? Is Con O'Neill the equivalent of an American public defendant? I am not used to seeing three different lawyers who don't seem like they are even from the same law firm, representing the same client in court. And great catch by the Asian lawyer regarding the missing inhaler. Nice to see Box go from smug to squirming.
Con O'Neill's character, Stone, is a solicitor. Connie is a barrister. They can both be classed as lawyers, but it's the solicitor who usually has contact with the client immediately and will instruct a barrister (also known as counsel) to act on their client's behalf once a matter goes to court.
Did they just completely drop the missing cell phone plot? I assume it was the cellmate who was not Pete P who took it. The prisoner with the cell phone may come across as scarier compared to Freddy, but I think Freddy is the eviler of the two. At least with the cell phone guy, you know what he is. Freddy tries to make you think he's your friend, but his intentions are much more nefarious.
I don't think it's been dropped, I think it could resurface tonight.
I think Freddie is supposed to recognise that Ben is intelligent - something in the eyes, nadthe fact Ben doesn't just cave in to him every time he offers him something.
I admit some of Ben's choices don't seem to have been very bright but that's more naivety than stupidity.
I could be very wrong but I felt he meant he knew her in a generic sense as opposed to personally. He knew the sort of thing a mum would put her son in to try to impress a jury.
I think that's all part of the mystery. If we take Ben's word for it then we accept he's suffering from alcohol/drug induced amnesia, which is more than possible.
I asusmed it was heroin too because Freddie said "you'll be back for more" and it can be immediately addictive.
I thought the flash of memory was interesting though. I wonder if being forced to take it will actually open his memory up in some way.
Oh no, he'll end up like Brad Pitt in Twelve Monkeys!
Thanks I didn't remember or hear Freddie saying you'll be back for more so it is likely to be heroin.
I think Freddie is supposed to recognise that Ben is intelligent - something in the eyes, nadthe fact Ben doesn't just cave in to him every time he offers him something.
I admit some of Ben's choices don't seem to have been very bright but that's more naivety than stupidity.
I could be very wrong but I felt he meant he knew her in a generic sense as opposed to personally. He knew the sort of thing a mum would put her son in to try to impress a jury.
I think that's all part of the mystery. If we take Ben's word for it then we accept he's suffering from alcohol/drug induced amnesia, which is more than possible.
I asusmed it was heroin too because Freddie said "you'll be back for more" and it can be immediately addictive.
I thought the flash of memory was interesting though. I wonder if being forced to take it will actually open his memory up in some way.
Oh no, he'll end up like Brad Pitt in Twelve Monkeys!
Thats what I wondered too, I read on the first preview that Ben had a "uncharacteristic drink and drug fuelled night out" meaning it can't have been like him, and Melanie was more ready to take drugs/mess with knives than he was (she was a bit loopy TBH) and the Bill Patterson character said Ben was a "nice kid" (I think).
I think the tension is increased by having it over 5 nights not weeks.
Its been funny reading all the legal OPs here wailing how hard done they are portrayed in this CJ,lol
I understand that a lot of the police investigation work has been left out too ..
But the facts are the same , If you are an innocent person charged with a serious crime ,the legal an penal system is heavily flawed in the UK .
I am sure that Pete Postlethwaite took that mobie,it wouldnt surprise me if he was the Real wing boss , freddie the black prison boss wouldnt survive 5 mins on a real wing ,
weak prisoners do get *jacked up* an hooked on smack ,
violent mental prisoners are given the *chemical cosh* by screws,
The case wouldnt be seen by the crown court within a year or longer,
his legal team would be a lot bigger an better on a juicy *expensive* Murder case ,an whatever anyone says here they want to *WIN* the case wether you are guilty as hell , means nothing to them ...
They dont use those type of phones in prisons its all about phone cards not **** inside ,
You cannot just wander too the MO /doctor when you feel like it ,
If Ben had kept that bullies mobie , he would have had a sharpened toothbrush *banged* on him that morn ...not killed but made to suffer ...when you have a *plaything * why lose it !
Regarding cavity searches Group4/private screws *are* fearful of being sued by prisoners,
Not enough foreigners /east europeans shown on the wing , no muslims as well , which is strange/or just PC !
In closing I think that Bens a headaball/nutter who has done this murder ,
in reality nice suburban quiet innocent looking guys can kill, just as well as your media frenzy on the knife wielding stella soaked hoodies..:)
I may be wrong on this but don't prisons normally have a remand wing for those awaiting trial, rather than suspects being thrown into general population prisons?
Another gripping episode, the only thing that distracted me was one of the jury members was the infamous extra used in the second series of The Apprentice for their airline advert where it looked like he was pleasuring himself!
I may be wrong on this but don't prisons normally have a remand wing for those awaiting trial, rather than suspects being thrown into general population prisons?
When he made the first call to his mother he just dialled the number, surely he would have to use a phone card. All the build up to what would happen about the mobile phone going missing then nothing happens.
Yes, I wondered about that too, and also I'm sure Hooch told him that when inmates borrowed a mobile phone they used their own SIM card, but i don't remember seeing him put one in himself (unless I missed it) so whose was he using?
The lawyer mentioned to Ben that he would probably get 5 years if he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, and would then serve only two and a half with good behaviour. Can any legal experts tell me why the sentencing laws work in this way? I can understand trying to encourage prisoners to toe the line and rewarding them accordingly, but would it not make more sense to issue a 5 year sentence and have them serve the full amount with good behaviour, but having it extended for bad behaviour?
No, I think all along he was supposed to have lost what happened in between going downstairs and then waking up to find Melanie dead. That's assuming he lost anything - he could have been unconscious the whole time and someone else killed her.
she could have killed herself... play a bizarre game to get his fingerprints on the handle, stick the knife in a door jamb, run on to it, and enough time to return to bed and die. CSI Grissom would have found the right blood spatter to prove his innocence
The lawyer mentioned to Ben that he would probably get 5 years if he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, and would then serve only two and a half with good behaviour. Can any legal experts tell me why the sentencing laws work in this way? I can understand trying to encourage prisoners to toe the line and rewarding them accordingly, but would it not make more sense to issue a 5 year sentence and have them serve the full amount with good behaviour, but having it extended for bad behaviour?
I think it's probably best not to get onto how ridiculous our legal system is really...! eek:
Thats what I wondered too, I read on the first preview that Ben had a "uncharacteristic drink and drug fuelled night out" meaning it can't have been like him, and Melanie was more ready to take drugs/mess with knives than he was (she was a bit loopy TBH) and the Bill Patterson character said Ben was a "nice kid" (I think).
I think the tension is increased by having it over 5 nights not weeks.
It's cleverly done. I mean, we really don't know anything about Ben pre this night so in a sense we're coming at it from a jury's point of view too.
I may be wrong on this but don't prisons normally have a remand wing for those awaiting trial, rather than suspects being thrown into general population prisons?
That's what I thought - it does seem a bit rough if someone awaiting trial is put straight into prison.
Another gripping episode, the only thing that distracted me was one of the jury members was the infamous extra used in the second series of The Apprentice for their airline advert where it looked like he was pleasuring himself!
she could have killed herself... play a bizarre game to get his fingerprints on the handle, stick the knife in a door jamb, run on to it, and enough time to return to bed and die. CSI Grissom would have found the right blood spatter to prove his innocence
Or Dexter.
You know, I did briefly wonder if she could have done it herself as she seemed a bit wild, to put in politely, but I suppose that would be too daft.
I'm glad it is a mystery though as when I first watched it I thought it was going to be and an out and out damnation of the justice system and the outcome seemed obvious - ie he'd served life for something he hadn't done. Whereas now I'm not sure that will happen, or that he didn't do it.
I also thought she may have killed herself. There doesn't seem any reason as to why he would have killed her, unless he has a mental illness or something similar (if this was the case though, wouldn't he have shown some signs of an illness/disorder by now?). As others have said, I'm starting to feel the plot hasn't really developed all that much since the first episode and considering it finishes tomorrow, it's going to be interesting (hopefully) to see how it all ties up in the end.
Agree with you chiaroscuro - it does seem very harsh to immediately put Ben in prison while he's awaiting trial - a tactic to make us feel sorry for him? I don't know, (but I do feel sorry for him ) - I would of thought he would be arrested, put on trial and THEN, on the basis of the trial, sent to prison IF he is guilty Or is that too simplistic?
Another gripping episode, the only thing that distracted me was one of the jury members was the infamous extra used in the second series of The Apprentice for their airline advert where it looked like he was pleasuring himself!
He also had quite a big part in an episode of Harry Hill: "It's Jasbir time!"
Comments
Agree that we are supposed to be sharing his powerlessness and frustration.
We don't know that it is heroin they have injected him with. Could it be a truth drug therefore he owes even more to Mr Nice Guy?
Don't forget that the title of the series - Criminal Justice - has two meanings: that part of the legal system that deals with prosecuting and sentencing criminals; and that justice itself may not be fair and honest... justice is criminal, in other words.
There are only two episodes left and there's been hardly any plot development. We're still no closer to finding out what really happened then we were when it started.
I fear that the last episode will feel really rushed as they try to cram everything in and tie up all the loose ends. It could really have done with being ten episodes, rather than five if they were going to move at this pace.
Another Op said that maybe the other cellmate (not PP) took the phone but hadn't he already left by the time Ben got the phone. Also if he wanted a mobile phone why not go to Mr Nice Guy (sorry forgotten his name)?
I admit some of Ben's choices don't seem to have been very bright but that's more naivety than stupidity.
I could be very wrong but I felt he meant he knew her in a generic sense as opposed to personally. He knew the sort of thing a mum would put her son in to try to impress a jury.
I think that's all part of the mystery. If we take Ben's word for it then we accept he's suffering from alcohol/drug induced amnesia, which is more than possible.
I asusmed it was heroin too because Freddie said "you'll be back for more" and it can be immediately addictive.
I thought the flash of memory was interesting though. I wonder if being forced to take it will actually open his memory up in some way.
Con O'Neill's character, Stone, is a solicitor. Connie is a barrister. They can both be classed as lawyers, but it's the solicitor who usually has contact with the client immediately and will instruct a barrister (also known as counsel) to act on their client's behalf once a matter goes to court.
I don't think it's been dropped, I think it could resurface tonight.
Thanks I didn't remember or hear Freddie saying you'll be back for more so it is likely to be heroin.
Thats what I wondered too, I read on the first preview that Ben had a "uncharacteristic drink and drug fuelled night out" meaning it can't have been like him, and Melanie was more ready to take drugs/mess with knives than he was (she was a bit loopy TBH) and the Bill Patterson character said Ben was a "nice kid" (I think).
I think the tension is increased by having it over 5 nights not weeks.
I understand that a lot of the police investigation work has been left out too ..
But the facts are the same , If you are an innocent person charged with a serious crime ,the legal an penal system is heavily flawed in the UK .
I am sure that Pete Postlethwaite took that mobie,it wouldnt surprise me if he was the Real wing boss , freddie the black prison boss wouldnt survive 5 mins on a real wing ,
weak prisoners do get *jacked up* an hooked on smack ,
violent mental prisoners are given the *chemical cosh* by screws,
The case wouldnt be seen by the crown court within a year or longer,
his legal team would be a lot bigger an better on a juicy *expensive* Murder case ,an whatever anyone says here they want to *WIN* the case wether you are guilty as hell , means nothing to them ...
They dont use those type of phones in prisons its all about phone cards not **** inside ,
You cannot just wander too the MO /doctor when you feel like it ,
If Ben had kept that bullies mobie , he would have had a sharpened toothbrush *banged* on him that morn ...not killed but made to suffer ...when you have a *plaything * why lose it !
Regarding cavity searches Group4/private screws *are* fearful of being sued by prisoners,
Not enough foreigners /east europeans shown on the wing , no muslims as well , which is strange/or just PC !
In closing I think that Bens a headaball/nutter who has done this murder ,
in reality nice suburban quiet innocent looking guys can kill, just as well as your media frenzy on the knife wielding stella soaked hoodies..:)
And they don't have to wear prison uniforms.
Yes, I wondered about that too, and also I'm sure Hooch told him that when inmates borrowed a mobile phone they used their own SIM card, but i don't remember seeing him put one in himself (unless I missed it) so whose was he using?
The lawyer mentioned to Ben that he would probably get 5 years if he pleaded guilty to manslaughter, and would then serve only two and a half with good behaviour. Can any legal experts tell me why the sentencing laws work in this way? I can understand trying to encourage prisoners to toe the line and rewarding them accordingly, but would it not make more sense to issue a 5 year sentence and have them serve the full amount with good behaviour, but having it extended for bad behaviour?
she could have killed herself... play a bizarre game to get his fingerprints on the handle, stick the knife in a door jamb, run on to it, and enough time to return to bed and die. CSI Grissom would have found the right blood spatter to prove his innocence
I think it's probably best not to get onto how ridiculous our legal system is really...! eek:
That's what I thought - it does seem a bit rough if someone awaiting trial is put straight into prison.
Or Dexter.
I'm glad it is a mystery though as when I first watched it I thought it was going to be and an out and out damnation of the justice system and the outcome seemed obvious - ie he'd served life for something he hadn't done. Whereas now I'm not sure that will happen, or that he didn't do it.
She did seem a bit bonkers.
Ah, okay thanks.
I did wonder if it was the same team, as there are similarities in the style of production. Both also have a slight bluish tint to the picture.
The Bar Council aren't happy with Peter Moffatt's portrayal of barristers.
There's also a long letter from Moffatt replying to the criticism in today's Guardian.
He also had quite a big part in an episode of Harry Hill: "It's Jasbir time!"