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BBC Alba & Series Link
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I have asked this question in some other threads, but haven't received any replies, so sorry in advance for starting a new one!
Don't know if anyone has tried setting series link recordings on this channel, but all the series I've tried to record don't! You can set an 'auto' one off recording or use padding with no problem. If you set a series link, the box comes out of standby, as expected, then just stays in the 'awaiting programme start mode'. I also had this problem with the BBC News channel for 5 weeks, as well, but last weekend the programmes set actually recorded.
As both channels are on Astra 2A, Transponder 13, I thought the problem may be there, but after contacting both Freesat and the BBC I was informed there is no problem their end. The BBC went as far as to say they tested this on a 'receiver' with no problem, advising me to contact Humax if it persists. I know it's a 'minority interest' channel but was wondering if anyone else was having a similar problem?
By the way, I have no problems with series link on any other channel so I cannot see the logic in pointing the fault at the box, unless it's being very selective in what I'm allowed to record.
Don't know if anyone has tried setting series link recordings on this channel, but all the series I've tried to record don't! You can set an 'auto' one off recording or use padding with no problem. If you set a series link, the box comes out of standby, as expected, then just stays in the 'awaiting programme start mode'. I also had this problem with the BBC News channel for 5 weeks, as well, but last weekend the programmes set actually recorded.
As both channels are on Astra 2A, Transponder 13, I thought the problem may be there, but after contacting both Freesat and the BBC I was informed there is no problem their end. The BBC went as far as to say they tested this on a 'receiver' with no problem, advising me to contact Humax if it persists. I know it's a 'minority interest' channel but was wondering if anyone else was having a similar problem?
By the way, I have no problems with series link on any other channel so I cannot see the logic in pointing the fault at the box, unless it's being very selective in what I'm allowed to record.
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Hi Caoimhghin this is really a long shot as nobody has replied to date I thought I'd offer this observation. From a quick look at the other channels and other programmes on the epg if you have your CRID Test enabled on the foxsat HDR when you press the i button it should show the SERIES CRID and a PROG CRID. All channels show a PROG AND SERIES CRID except BBC Alba it only shows a SERIES CRID. My thinking is that if there is a SERIES CRID it informs the box that when making a recording it flags up the series link option, but because there is no PROG CRID the box fails to make the recording. If this is the case then it's a BBC fault for not attaching all the info to the epg data.
here is a posting on enabling CRID Test http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=30860859&postcount=11
But I could be completely wrong
I'll check out the CRID data on the programmes that are not recording and maybe respond to the BBC who claim they have tested series link recording on this channel and found there was no problem!
I haven't seen the Freesat+ specification and what a receiver should do if this situation occurs, but if the meta data is only showing the Series Link Crid, then this could be either the data not being in the transmission or the box interpreting the data incorrectly. Although the latter seems unlikely as it would affect other channels too. Either way something is obviously wrong, but getting either the broadcaster or Humax to admit to it being their fault is not an easy task!
I guess there's not many people out there who watch this channel, hence the lack of response. I don't suppose, if you have the time, you could see if you have the same problem when recording from this channel? It would give me more weight in contacting the BBC again.
I going back to the BBC with this information and see what they say. It would have helped if other people could have reported that they too were experiencing the same problem, but never mind.
Your original theory makes a lot of sense. The HDR must have some means of recognising which episodes of a series it has already recorded so that it doesn't record repeats of the same episode. If a seried only has a Series CRID (i.e.no episode CRID) then all episodes would have the same CRID. Having recorded one, it would never record another as it would think it had already done so. But should this be the case?
I recently tried a series recording of Ally McBeal (Zone Reality?) and that failed to record the first programme. That made me speculate as to what's going on. I wonder if it is legitimate for a programme to have just the series CRID. The intention would be that any programme with that CRID would be recorded, whether or not it has already been recorded. Not very useful if the same episode is repeated several times, but for regular programmes that are not repeated (e.g. News) why bother with an episode CRID?
If there is any truth in this speculation, it might be a HDR problem rather than a broadcaster problem. It may be that the HDR is expecting both series and episode CRIDs and gets confused if the episode CRID is missing. If it is legitimate for a programme to have just a series CRID, then this would be a bug in the HDR.
I've tried googling for a specification for use of CRIDs, but without success. Is there anyone out there who knows whether series CRID alone is legitimate?
If series CRID alone is not legitimate, the HDR should still have to make a decision as to what to do if it encounters this. It basically has four choices - (1) not record anything, (2) record every programme with that CRID, (3) treat every programme as having the same episode CRID and thus only record the first one, (4) not offer the programme as a series. It seems that the HDR may be doing (1) which is arguably the worst choice. Option (4) is arguably the best choice.
To state the obvious, that is treating the same regular programme transmitted at different times as being different series - a very effective way of avoiding repeats being recorded without having to use an episode CRID. In my opinion, that does make a lot of sense for regular programmes that have an indefinate number of "episodes". It should simplify things, and simplification should make for a more robust system.
I still haven't been able to find out if only broadcasting the series CRID in this way is a legitimate use of the functionality but, if BBC are doing it regularly, it starts to look like it is. In which case, if the HDR can't properly handle it, it also starts to look like a Humax bug.
Conclusion: When it comes to setting a recording, the HDR offers series link if there is a series CRID in the EPG. But, when it comes to making the recording, it doesn't like the prog CRID being absent.
Tip: Enable CRID test so that you can check whether a series of programmes also has prog CRIDs before setting a series recording. If it doesn't, set individual recordings.
I've been checking other channels, and as mentioned above, all the Zone channels only display a Series CRID for multi episode programmes.
What I did notice was, if you schedule a series event during the 15 minute window before the programme is due to start, then put the box in standby, the programme will record. Why this should be is puzzling! If the box is in standby before the 15 minute window, power saving mode or otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter if it's the first or subsequent attempt at recording the series, it will not record.
Why the BBC would transmit both a Series CRID and Program CRID on their main channels and only the Series CRID on, what may be considered, 'minority' channels defies logic. Unfortunately, having no details of how it should be processed/interpreted makes it impossible to say with whom the fault lies, but you would have thought the data should be consistent, which it isn't at present.
I'll just have to wait and see what the BBC tell me next time, when they contact me. At least this time I'm expecting a telephone call, which is easier than trying to condense a meaningful enquiry into their 350 character limited on-line system!
Well it's a week later and I observed that my box had come out of standby with the red light and clock showing but not recording. Obviously the box had been triggered to record but failed I think it tried because the epg was flagged but failed because either the prog crid was missing or the box cant handle missing crids as awo1949 posted
Something's up with this channel's Freeview+ data...
(Not that other channels data have been 100% :rolleyes:)
There is a very systematic cause. If a programme only has a Series CRID, there is a problem recording (just the first instance or not at all). If a programme has a Prog CRID as well, it will record (as long as the broadcsster obliges with the start signal). There are just too many channels (including some BBC) that only use Series CRIDs for me to believe that this isn't a legitimate way of doing things. Thus it has to be a problem with the HDR.
Something for Humax to fix. Bob_Cat, are you getting this?
The use of Series CRID with or without a Program CRID needs clarifying, maybe the Series CRID by itself is used for programmes of a 'continuous' nature like, 'Click' on BBC News. We just need someone in the know to clarify, so that a fix can be made either to the broadcast data or firmware, until then I'm just checking the CRID and if it's only showing the Series CRID then I'll set either a 'weekly' or 'daily' event depending on the 'series'.
Zone Romantica is another channel which does not have Prog CRIDs, but Series CRIDs. I've just set up two SR timers with back-to-back episodes to see if they all record...
If you set a series link with only Series CRIDs then, from my experience, they will not record!
More tests are needed, but it is beginning to look like an HDR bug... I did get one episode of 'Cuirm @ Celtic' to record on BBC Alba (set as an SR timer)... I have to wait to get home to see if the timers set last night have recorded or not...
I guess if the box recorded one instance then it is looking more likely to be a firmware error. However, it still does not answer why there are inconsistencies in the transmitted data though. Pity the Humax representative hasn't thrown any light on this.
If a programme does not have any CRID information in the EPG, what does it do? My guess is that is sets a timer for the scheduled transmission time as indicated in the EPG. If it also does this when there is a Series CRID but no Prog CRID, that would explain why the first instance (after you set up the recording) will work. However, that doesn't explain the cases where nothing is recorded. Still thinking about that.
As for Bob_Cat not commenting, his silence might be confirmation that it is a HDR bug. If Series CRID without Prog CRID is outside the freesat specification, it's possibly likely that he would have reported that. He doesn't always come in on such things, but he has been good at clarifying what should happen when we've erroneously thought the HDR is misbehaving.
The PVR does half the job by coming out of standby, assuming it receives the 'start of programme flag' it should record.
This is how I suspect things are happening or not as the case may be
The Programme CRID should contain things such as title, genre, summary, Published start time and Published end time
The Series CRID contains elements like the unique programme identities and some form of flagging mechanism that tells the set top box to offer a prompt to the operator to let them choose a series link or record a single episode
The Series CRID should also have a sequence that questions the start time and end time from the Prog CRID. These times are updated by the broadcaster for accurate recording when the broadcast schedule changes
This issue of recordings being made if the schedule was created within the 15 mins of broadcast and not if prior to, suggests that the stb knows that it cannot update from the Prog CRID so allows the recording to go ahead al be it at the rigid start and end time of the epg, however the subsequent recording say the airing a week later the stb comes out of standby because the schedule has told it to and it then tries to read the start time from the Prog CRID but can't because it hasn't been broadcast.
Again this is only my theory
But a plausible theory, nevertheless.
It doesn't, however, excuse the HDR for not recording every episode with the same Series CRID, even if it doesn't have a Prog CRID and start signal to go with it. The action you surmise the HDR takes if the schedule was created within the 15 minutes (i.e. record according to the EPG) could equally well be taken whenever the schedule was created and when rescheduling following the completion of a recording (i.e. finding the next instance with the same Series CRID).
When it comes to the action the HDR takes if a series is scheduled (or rescheduled) outside the 15 minute window, I wonder if it might be looking for a programme which matches search criteria for Program CRID in the EPG which it doesn't find. I.e. if the programme is scheduled within the 15 minutes, it doesn't search the EPG. It just records the programme. If the programme is scheduled outside of the 15 minutes, the HDR searches the EPG periodically, and when it wakes up to record, to check that the schedule hasn't changed. It will do the same thing on completing a recording. When setting the search criteria, it may set conditions for both Series and Prog CRIDs, but the criteria for the Prog CRID may never be matched for programmes without a Prog CRID. It could simply be that the criteria for Prog CRID is "any" when it should be "any or none".
if I'm right in thinking the first recording doesn't work if made prior to the T minus 15 because it then goes through the routine of questioning the possible updated start times but stumbles at this hurdle as the Prog CRID is missing.