Simplistic nonsense. There are not enough jobs for people to go to now, and even allowing for you chucking people out of the country for being the wrong colour, there would still not be enough jobs.
Who said anything about colour - most of these jobs have been taken by white people from eastern Europe, SA, Australia, New Zealand etc.
Also do you realise how expensive it is to live in London - where most migrants go to and which yet has the highest levels of worklessness and benefit claimants in the UK. On the dole you get £1,200 (below average for London) for a two bed flat paid through housing benefit - work and you have to finance that yourself. A lot just to rent let alone buy - why struggle when you can get this for free as hundreds of thousands do.
I know - I live in an east London borough where half the people of working age don't work despite it being 10 mins commute from the city and 15 mins from the west end.
^ But what you are saying there does not support what you are apparently suggesting - that people are content to fester on the dole. I am sure some are, but there are loads of people out there who are very keen to work, but the system makes it impossible. Personally, I don't think the problem is that benefits are too high. Reducing benefits will only cause misery. The problem is that rents (and property prices) are too high - the result, in my opinion, of inequality in society.
To get back on-topic, the solution to the problem is to raise income tax, not reduce benefits...
^ But what you are saying there does not support what you are apparently suggesting - that people are content to fester on the dole. I am sure some are, but there are loads of people out there who are very keen to work, but the system makes it impossible. Personally, I don't think the problem is that benefits are too high. Reducing benefits will only cause misery. The problem is that rents (and property prices) are too high - the result, in my opinion, of inequality in society.
To get back on-topic, the solution to the problem is to raise income tax, not reduce benefits...
And why are rents too high - because the state interferes in the market in places like London by renting properties from private landlords for 'social tenants' which pushes the price up for those who pay their own way and rent privately.
I have never understood why inner London boroughs dole out hundreds of millions annually to house people locally who don't want to work when people who are in work have to commute long distances because that's they only way they can afford housing. Crazy!
Well 400,000 income support payments saved is a start. Plus 80% of the jobs created since 1997 have been taken by immigrants. No wonder we have so many on benefits - they are better off not working.
The problem is Marty a great number of jobs taken are cleaning or fruit picking.
People won't do that for minimum wage unless the minimum wage is £12.
Gordon Brown's 'Tax Credit' system was designed from the outset to get as many people as possible part-dependent on some kind of benefit. It was (and remains) a cynical, crude way of getting people to vote Labour.
And it works. Even quite well-paid, middle class families can claim tax credits and they do - and they come to depend on them.
The problem is Marty a great number of jobs taken are cleaning or fruit picking.
People won't do that for minimum wage unless the minimum wage is £12.
Well - we have taxcredits to top up wages to encourage hard work. I don't mind providing housing and other subsidies to people willing to work - but when lazy people are sitting on their backsides watching daytime TV (and sorry there are lots like that in London) it does irritate.
The pressure on housing, schools, the NHS is too great from having to support 6m who don't work therefore requiring migrants to fill the jobs instead. London for example is now short of 14,000 primary school places so we need to build more schools, employ more teachers - so it goes on at a time when the public finances are in a mess.
Gordon Brown's 'Tax Credit' system was designed from the outset to get as many people as possible part-dependent on some kind of benefit. It was (and remains) a cynical, crude way of getting people to vote Labour.
And it works. Even quite well-paid, middle class families can claim tax credits and they do - and they come to depend on them.
Setting aside the middle-class for a moment, isn't it better that low income families take any sort of work they can get, and it's topped up rather then take none whatsoever as it will never equal the amount they can receive purely on benefits?
Setting aside the middle-class for a moment, isn't it better that low income families take any sort of work they can get, and it's topped up rather then take none whatsoever as it will never equal the amount they can receive purely on benefits?
Yes - work is good for you, gets you out of bed, gives you some pride in yourself and is good for the soul. Better any work than being on the dole.
Well - we have taxcredits to top up wages to encourage hard work. I don't mind providing housing and other subsidies to people willing to work - but when lazy people are sitting on their backsides watching daytime TV (and sorry there are lots like that in London) it does irritate.
The pressure on housing, schools, the NHS is too great from having to support 6m who don't work therefore requiring migrants to fill the jobs instead. London for example is now short of 14,000 primary school places so we need to build more schools, employ more teachers - so it goes on at a time when the public finances are in a mess.
Marty , tax credits and top up wages are confusing.
Also they are often cut back without notice.
Why not replace them with a simple minumum wage of £12 or something simiar.
Then people will know what they earn for each hour rather than a much lower amount.
Many know the difference between the minimum wage and benefits is very small.
Yes - work is good for you, gets you out of bed, gives you some pride in yourself and is good for the soul. Better any work than being on the dole.
Totally agree with you. I'd rather my tax went to helping people with lower incomes to make a decent standard of living then someone who chooses not to work.
The comments about middle class pensioners not getting anything make me laugh. How do you think the majority of the so called middle classes got that way? By getting up off their backsides form a young age and making a good life for themself by working damn had, thats how. Not many people were born into the standard of living they've got now, they got there themselves by grafting. Why should these people be penalised for their hard work just so those who have chosen an easier way can get more handouts?
Marty , tax credits and top up wages are confusing.
Also they are often cut back without notice.
Why not replace them with a simple minumum wage of £12 or something simiar.
Then people will know what they earn for each hour rather than a much lower amount.
Many know the difference between the minimum wage and benefits is very small.
Tax credits are just ridiculous. Why not raise the starting threashold for paying tax to £10k or something. Also, if the government want to give something back to 'hard working families' (which GB likes to falsely claim)
whjy not just have a tax allowance for those with children which would be cheaper and easier to sort than tax credits.
And why are rents too high - because the state interferes in the market in places like London by renting properties from private landlords for 'social tenants' which pushes the price up for those who pay their own way and rent privately.
I have never understood why inner London boroughs dole out hundreds of millions annually to house people locally who don't want to work when people who are in work have to commute long distances because that's they only way they can afford housing. Crazy!
I
It's a sickening system. A working couple can struggle to rent somewhere because the local authority are willing to pay a private landlord £2000 per month of taxpayers money to house a family of welfare recipients.
And Labour seems to be conspiring to maintain these rent levels. I've heard that an incentive for social tenants to seek below market rate rent is being removed. This may put a floor on asking rents.
Tax credits are just ridiculous. Why not raise the starting threashold for paying tax to £10k or something. Also, if the government want to give something back to 'hard working families' (which GB likes to falsely claim) whjy not just have a tax allowance for those with children which would be cheaper and easier to sort than tax credits.
Because Labour would not be able to expand the state's payroll!
They have still paid in over their life time.
Why should they be penalised?
Everyone has paid in over their lifetime. Why should those in real need suffer so that the fat and wealthy can claim a few extra pounds they wouldn't miss?
As I have said - its a choice you have to make. Give the money to people who don't need it and watch those who do need it suffer, or put the money where it is needed. Choose.
Tax credits are just ridiculous. Why not raise the starting threashold for paying tax to £10k or something. Also, if the government want to give something back to 'hard working families' (which GB likes to falsely claim)
whjy not just have a tax allowance for those with children which would be cheaper and easier to sort than tax credits.
Moving the tax threshold would be a good idea as well as the tax allowance.
But the minimum wage still needs to be looked at.
If someone gets £200 a week of benefits and a full time minimum wage job pays just a little extra then it creates a barrier as payments are clawed back from people when they are earning. It often is better for them to stay out of work than take a minimum wage job.
Perhaps its time to cap immigration. I am tired of the 'we need migrants to do the jobs British people don't want to do'.
Stop their benefits and some of these 6m will have to do these jobs.
yes .id stop aa lot of the stupid benefits and then force people to work for at least 10- 15 hours a week picking up litter etc ...but id also have a maximum wage and wealth cap ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossall
They can start by ending Child Benefit payments for the rich. Why does anyone on £150,000 a year need Child Benefit?
They could end State Pension payouts for the wealthy retired as well.
They could end State Pension payouts for the wealthy retired as well.
so because I worked up to having my children and my husband worked 14 hr days and we paid taxes etc we should not be allowed child benefit or a pension??? but if i go on benefits from when i leave school(if i even bother going to school) or i arrive in this country uninvited i am entitled to claim benefits paid for by the taxes taken from people who worked all their lives in this country??? b*llsh*t
Yes - a lot of it will be the state pension. Just think what it will be like in 15-20 years time:
1 pensioner for every 2 workers
no private/company pensions
half of people (two thirds of under 35s) expecting to live off the state pension because they have not contributed to their own pension
many pensioners still renting as they couldn't afford to buy a house
This country will be bankrupt - it we cannot live within our means after a 10 year boom what hope is there for us in the future. And that's before you factor in those unwilling to work.
Yes - a lot of it will be the state pension. Just think what it will be like in 15-20 years time:
1 pensioner for every 2 workers
no private/company pensions
half of people (two thirds of under 35s) expecting to live off the state pension because they have not contributed to their own pension
many pensioners still renting as they couldn't afford to buy a house
This country will be bankrupt - it we cannot live within our means after a 10 year boom what hope is there for us in the future. And that's before you factor in those unwilling to work.
The only answer imo is to raise the state pension age to 70 or higher and get those currently on benefits to do the jobs currently done by the public sector in return for their dole money. I bet that's what happens. £2 an hour jobs here we come.
...so because I worked up to having my children and my husband worked 14 hr days and we paid taxes etc we should not be allowed child benefit or a pension???
but if i go on benefits from when i leave school(if i even bother going to school) ... i am entitled to claim benefits paid for by the taxes taken from people who worked all their lives in this country??? b*llsh*t
If you are making an effort to find work, or are sick, Yes.
but if i... arrive in this country uninvited i am entitled to claim benefits paid for by the taxes taken from people who worked all their lives in this country??? b*llsh*t
If you arrive in this country uninvited, you are currently not eligible for the full range of benefits, so No.
The only answer imo is to raise the state pension age to 70 or higher and get those currently on benefits to do the jobs currently done by the public sector in return for their dole money. I bet that's what happens. £2 an hour jobs here we come.
Public sector pension liabilities are often quoted as £1 trillion. But don't dare suggest increasing retirement from 60-65 to an age that reflects life expectancy on this forum....
Comments
Who said anything about colour - most of these jobs have been taken by white people from eastern Europe, SA, Australia, New Zealand etc.
Also do you realise how expensive it is to live in London - where most migrants go to and which yet has the highest levels of worklessness and benefit claimants in the UK. On the dole you get £1,200 (below average for London) for a two bed flat paid through housing benefit - work and you have to finance that yourself. A lot just to rent let alone buy - why struggle when you can get this for free as hundreds of thousands do.
I know - I live in an east London borough where half the people of working age don't work despite it being 10 mins commute from the city and 15 mins from the west end.
To get back on-topic, the solution to the problem is to raise income tax, not reduce benefits...
And why are rents too high - because the state interferes in the market in places like London by renting properties from private landlords for 'social tenants' which pushes the price up for those who pay their own way and rent privately.
I have never understood why inner London boroughs dole out hundreds of millions annually to house people locally who don't want to work when people who are in work have to commute long distances because that's they only way they can afford housing. Crazy!
I
The problem is Marty a great number of jobs taken are cleaning or fruit picking.
People won't do that for minimum wage unless the minimum wage is £12.
And it works. Even quite well-paid, middle class families can claim tax credits and they do - and they come to depend on them.
Well - we have taxcredits to top up wages to encourage hard work. I don't mind providing housing and other subsidies to people willing to work - but when lazy people are sitting on their backsides watching daytime TV (and sorry there are lots like that in London) it does irritate.
The pressure on housing, schools, the NHS is too great from having to support 6m who don't work therefore requiring migrants to fill the jobs instead. London for example is now short of 14,000 primary school places so we need to build more schools, employ more teachers - so it goes on at a time when the public finances are in a mess.
They have still paid in over their life time.
Why should they be penalised?
Yes - work is good for you, gets you out of bed, gives you some pride in yourself and is good for the soul. Better any work than being on the dole.
Marty , tax credits and top up wages are confusing.
Also they are often cut back without notice.
Why not replace them with a simple minumum wage of £12 or something simiar.
Then people will know what they earn for each hour rather than a much lower amount.
Many know the difference between the minimum wage and benefits is very small.
Totally agree with you. I'd rather my tax went to helping people with lower incomes to make a decent standard of living then someone who chooses not to work.
The comments about middle class pensioners not getting anything make me laugh. How do you think the majority of the so called middle classes got that way? By getting up off their backsides form a young age and making a good life for themself by working damn had, thats how. Not many people were born into the standard of living they've got now, they got there themselves by grafting. Why should these people be penalised for their hard work just so those who have chosen an easier way can get more handouts?
Tax credits are just ridiculous. Why not raise the starting threashold for paying tax to £10k or something. Also, if the government want to give something back to 'hard working families' (which GB likes to falsely claim)
whjy not just have a tax allowance for those with children which would be cheaper and easier to sort than tax credits.
It's a sickening system. A working couple can struggle to rent somewhere because the local authority are willing to pay a private landlord £2000 per month of taxpayers money to house a family of welfare recipients.
And Labour seems to be conspiring to maintain these rent levels. I've heard that an incentive for social tenants to seek below market rate rent is being removed. This may put a floor on asking rents.
Because Labour would not be able to expand the state's payroll!
As I have said - its a choice you have to make. Give the money to people who don't need it and watch those who do need it suffer, or put the money where it is needed. Choose.
Moving the tax threshold would be a good idea as well as the tax allowance.
But the minimum wage still needs to be looked at.
If someone gets £200 a week of benefits and a full time minimum wage job pays just a little extra then it creates a barrier as payments are clawed back from people when they are earning. It often is better for them to stay out of work than take a minimum wage job.
EDIT: here we go:
United Kingdom Central Government and Local Authority Spending Fiscal Year 2009.
Amounts in £ Billion
Pensions £77.1 Billion
Sickness and disability £31.2 Billion
Family and children £21.6 Billion
Social exclusion n.e.c. £20.3 Billion
Unemployment £4.9 Billion
Housing £3.2 Billion
etc...
Total- £162 Billion
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/budget_ukgs.php#ukgs30240
That social exclusion figure looks high..
yes .id stop aa lot of the stupid benefits and then force people to work for at least 10- 15 hours a week picking up litter etc ...but id also have a maximum wage and wealth cap ..
Originally Posted by Rossall
They can start by ending Child Benefit payments for the rich. Why does anyone on £150,000 a year need Child Benefit?
They could end State Pension payouts for the wealthy retired as well.
so because I worked up to having my children and my husband worked 14 hr days and we paid taxes etc we should not be allowed child benefit or a pension??? but if i go on benefits from when i leave school(if i even bother going to school) or i arrive in this country uninvited i am entitled to claim benefits paid for by the taxes taken from people who worked all their lives in this country??? b*llsh*t
Sounds like good news for countries like Switzerland..
Yes - a lot of it will be the state pension. Just think what it will be like in 15-20 years time:
1 pensioner for every 2 workers
no private/company pensions
half of people (two thirds of under 35s) expecting to live off the state pension because they have not contributed to their own pension
many pensioners still renting as they couldn't afford to buy a house
This country will be bankrupt - it we cannot live within our means after a 10 year boom what hope is there for us in the future. And that's before you factor in those unwilling to work.
The only answer imo is to raise the state pension age to 70 or higher and get those currently on benefits to do the jobs currently done by the public sector in return for their dole money. I bet that's what happens. £2 an hour jobs here we come.
If you are making an effort to find work, or are sick, Yes.
If you arrive in this country uninvited, you are currently not eligible for the full range of benefits, so No.
Public sector pension liabilities are often quoted as £1 trillion. But don't dare suggest increasing retirement from 60-65 to an age that reflects life expectancy on this forum....